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Confused about a passage in Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal


Why is subjunctive used when talking about a fact?Using “qué” or “quién” when talking about peopleSer vs estar in sentences about compositionSome questions about Spanish tenses and sentence structure“No es culpa mía (de) que …”Talking about headaches in SpanishUsing “lo que” or “que” as the relative pronounHow do you use Alguno and its other forms correctly?The proper use of le as the indirect pronounWhy is subjunctive used when talking about a fact?Speaking about body parts in Spanish













1















I'm reading Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal, and I'm a bit confused about how this passage works gramatically:




La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un raton en
una caja de rapé. Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los
restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




First, is Professor McGonagall the implied subject of sumaba? If so, how does la belleza de las cajas fit in? I would have though you'd need a preposition in there, something like sumaba puntos por la belleza de las cajas.



And finally, I'm confused about how que tuvieran bigotes works; I again would have thought you'd need a preposition, e.g. something like los restaba por las (cajas) que tuvieran bigotes.



Gracias!










share|improve this question



























    1















    I'm reading Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal, and I'm a bit confused about how this passage works gramatically:




    La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un raton en
    una caja de rapé. Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los
    restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




    First, is Professor McGonagall the implied subject of sumaba? If so, how does la belleza de las cajas fit in? I would have though you'd need a preposition in there, something like sumaba puntos por la belleza de las cajas.



    And finally, I'm confused about how que tuvieran bigotes works; I again would have thought you'd need a preposition, e.g. something like los restaba por las (cajas) que tuvieran bigotes.



    Gracias!










    share|improve this question

























      1












      1








      1








      I'm reading Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal, and I'm a bit confused about how this passage works gramatically:




      La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un raton en
      una caja de rapé. Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los
      restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




      First, is Professor McGonagall the implied subject of sumaba? If so, how does la belleza de las cajas fit in? I would have though you'd need a preposition in there, something like sumaba puntos por la belleza de las cajas.



      And finally, I'm confused about how que tuvieran bigotes works; I again would have thought you'd need a preposition, e.g. something like los restaba por las (cajas) que tuvieran bigotes.



      Gracias!










      share|improve this question














      I'm reading Harry Potter y la piedra filosofal, and I'm a bit confused about how this passage works gramatically:




      La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un raton en
      una caja de rapé. Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los
      restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




      First, is Professor McGonagall the implied subject of sumaba? If so, how does la belleza de las cajas fit in? I would have though you'd need a preposition in there, something like sumaba puntos por la belleza de las cajas.



      And finally, I'm confused about how que tuvieran bigotes works; I again would have thought you'd need a preposition, e.g. something like los restaba por las (cajas) que tuvieran bigotes.



      Gracias!







      gramática






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked 8 hours ago









      Alan O'DonnellAlan O'Donnell

      1233




      1233






















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

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          4














          The sentence:




          Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




          is perfect as is, and I wouldn’t go so far as to criticize the translation.



          The first part of the sentence is a case of subject/predicate inversion, and is to be understood as follows:




          La belleza de las cajas (subject) sumaba puntos (predicate).




          This inversion is very usual in Spanish.



          In the second part of the sentence, we find a nominal clause as subject, and in this case inversion is not mandatory but convenient:




          Que tuvieran bigotes (subject) los restaba (predicate).




          The sentence is fine as stated because reference is being made to the rules by which the students would be assessed, and by omitting “the teacher” the rules sound more impersonal and objective. This would be a literal translation:




          • The beauty of the boxes added points, but the fact that they had whiskers subtracted them.


          The original is in the passive form, which is in line with the idea that some impersonality was meant to be assigned to the sentence:



          Points were given for how pretty the snuffbox was, but taken away if it had whiskers.






          share|improve this answer


























          • Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

            – Alan O'Donnell
            4 hours ago



















          3














          Based on the comment OP made in a different question ("I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works"), I propose another way of analyzing the second sentence. To me it's clear that this is neither an impersonal sentence nor is the subject implicit.



          The sentence consists of two propositions coordinated by the conjunction pero:




          1. sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas

          2. los restaba que tuvieran bigotes


          In (1) the subject is «la belleza de las cajas». It's after the verb instead of before, but that's not unusual in Spanish. What this proposition means is that "the beauty of the boxes added points", i.e. when there was beauty in the boxes, that beauty counted for more points. Puntos is the direct object of sumaba.



          In (2) we have a plural 3rd person pronoun, los, which stands for puntos and is the direct object of the verb restaba. The subject in this proposition is the subordinate phrase «que tuvieran bigotes». That is: "that they had whiskers (or "having whiskers") subtracted them (=points)".



          "Normalizing" and making everything explicit, this would be




          La belleza de las cajas sumaba puntos, pero que tuvieran bigotes los restaba.







          share|improve this answer































            0














            Basically, it is saying the following:




            The professor awarded points to the students based on the beauty of their boxes
            and took off points if the boxes had whiskers (imagine a mouse's whiskers...)




            And for the following:




            los restaba que tuvieran bigotes




            First of all, "los" refers to the points and not the boxes, so using las is inappropriate in this case. It's already clear what he is taking the points off for (the boxes) so it is unnecessary to repeat it. No other prepositions are needed to clarify in Spanish, though from an English perspective, it is a different way of employing language.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

              – Alan O'Donnell
              7 hours ago



















            -1














            I think, it is a rather lousy translation. I haven't read the English version but anyway, the translator could (as you well said) add one or two prepositions and make the passage a little more clear. However, as it is, i would interpret the text in these two ways:





            1. La profesora McGonagall es el sujeto implícito en la segunda oración




              La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [La profesora McGonagall] Ssumaba puntos [por] la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.





            2. El sustantibo implícito de la segunda oración es abstracto




              La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [Se] Ssumaba puntos [por conseguir] la belleza de las cajas, pero los [se] restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.









            share|improve this answer

























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              4 Answers
              4






              active

              oldest

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              4 Answers
              4






              active

              oldest

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              active

              oldest

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              active

              oldest

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              4














              The sentence:




              Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




              is perfect as is, and I wouldn’t go so far as to criticize the translation.



              The first part of the sentence is a case of subject/predicate inversion, and is to be understood as follows:




              La belleza de las cajas (subject) sumaba puntos (predicate).




              This inversion is very usual in Spanish.



              In the second part of the sentence, we find a nominal clause as subject, and in this case inversion is not mandatory but convenient:




              Que tuvieran bigotes (subject) los restaba (predicate).




              The sentence is fine as stated because reference is being made to the rules by which the students would be assessed, and by omitting “the teacher” the rules sound more impersonal and objective. This would be a literal translation:




              • The beauty of the boxes added points, but the fact that they had whiskers subtracted them.


              The original is in the passive form, which is in line with the idea that some impersonality was meant to be assigned to the sentence:



              Points were given for how pretty the snuffbox was, but taken away if it had whiskers.






              share|improve this answer


























              • Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

                – Alan O'Donnell
                4 hours ago
















              4














              The sentence:




              Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




              is perfect as is, and I wouldn’t go so far as to criticize the translation.



              The first part of the sentence is a case of subject/predicate inversion, and is to be understood as follows:




              La belleza de las cajas (subject) sumaba puntos (predicate).




              This inversion is very usual in Spanish.



              In the second part of the sentence, we find a nominal clause as subject, and in this case inversion is not mandatory but convenient:




              Que tuvieran bigotes (subject) los restaba (predicate).




              The sentence is fine as stated because reference is being made to the rules by which the students would be assessed, and by omitting “the teacher” the rules sound more impersonal and objective. This would be a literal translation:




              • The beauty of the boxes added points, but the fact that they had whiskers subtracted them.


              The original is in the passive form, which is in line with the idea that some impersonality was meant to be assigned to the sentence:



              Points were given for how pretty the snuffbox was, but taken away if it had whiskers.






              share|improve this answer


























              • Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

                – Alan O'Donnell
                4 hours ago














              4












              4








              4







              The sentence:




              Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




              is perfect as is, and I wouldn’t go so far as to criticize the translation.



              The first part of the sentence is a case of subject/predicate inversion, and is to be understood as follows:




              La belleza de las cajas (subject) sumaba puntos (predicate).




              This inversion is very usual in Spanish.



              In the second part of the sentence, we find a nominal clause as subject, and in this case inversion is not mandatory but convenient:




              Que tuvieran bigotes (subject) los restaba (predicate).




              The sentence is fine as stated because reference is being made to the rules by which the students would be assessed, and by omitting “the teacher” the rules sound more impersonal and objective. This would be a literal translation:




              • The beauty of the boxes added points, but the fact that they had whiskers subtracted them.


              The original is in the passive form, which is in line with the idea that some impersonality was meant to be assigned to the sentence:



              Points were given for how pretty the snuffbox was, but taken away if it had whiskers.






              share|improve this answer















              The sentence:




              Sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que tuvieran bigotes.




              is perfect as is, and I wouldn’t go so far as to criticize the translation.



              The first part of the sentence is a case of subject/predicate inversion, and is to be understood as follows:




              La belleza de las cajas (subject) sumaba puntos (predicate).




              This inversion is very usual in Spanish.



              In the second part of the sentence, we find a nominal clause as subject, and in this case inversion is not mandatory but convenient:




              Que tuvieran bigotes (subject) los restaba (predicate).




              The sentence is fine as stated because reference is being made to the rules by which the students would be assessed, and by omitting “the teacher” the rules sound more impersonal and objective. This would be a literal translation:




              • The beauty of the boxes added points, but the fact that they had whiskers subtracted them.


              The original is in the passive form, which is in line with the idea that some impersonality was meant to be assigned to the sentence:



              Points were given for how pretty the snuffbox was, but taken away if it had whiskers.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 7 hours ago

























              answered 7 hours ago









              GustavsonGustavson

              9,1121828




              9,1121828













              • Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

                – Alan O'Donnell
                4 hours ago



















              • Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

                – Alan O'Donnell
                4 hours ago

















              Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

              – Alan O'Donnell
              4 hours ago





              Ah, very helpful, I hadn't realized you could use que like that in Spanish to use a nominal clause as a subject (although coming from French, it makes sense). For future reference, one of your other answers was related and helpful too: spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/25679/…

              – Alan O'Donnell
              4 hours ago











              3














              Based on the comment OP made in a different question ("I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works"), I propose another way of analyzing the second sentence. To me it's clear that this is neither an impersonal sentence nor is the subject implicit.



              The sentence consists of two propositions coordinated by the conjunction pero:




              1. sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas

              2. los restaba que tuvieran bigotes


              In (1) the subject is «la belleza de las cajas». It's after the verb instead of before, but that's not unusual in Spanish. What this proposition means is that "the beauty of the boxes added points", i.e. when there was beauty in the boxes, that beauty counted for more points. Puntos is the direct object of sumaba.



              In (2) we have a plural 3rd person pronoun, los, which stands for puntos and is the direct object of the verb restaba. The subject in this proposition is the subordinate phrase «que tuvieran bigotes». That is: "that they had whiskers (or "having whiskers") subtracted them (=points)".



              "Normalizing" and making everything explicit, this would be




              La belleza de las cajas sumaba puntos, pero que tuvieran bigotes los restaba.







              share|improve this answer




























                3














                Based on the comment OP made in a different question ("I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works"), I propose another way of analyzing the second sentence. To me it's clear that this is neither an impersonal sentence nor is the subject implicit.



                The sentence consists of two propositions coordinated by the conjunction pero:




                1. sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas

                2. los restaba que tuvieran bigotes


                In (1) the subject is «la belleza de las cajas». It's after the verb instead of before, but that's not unusual in Spanish. What this proposition means is that "the beauty of the boxes added points", i.e. when there was beauty in the boxes, that beauty counted for more points. Puntos is the direct object of sumaba.



                In (2) we have a plural 3rd person pronoun, los, which stands for puntos and is the direct object of the verb restaba. The subject in this proposition is the subordinate phrase «que tuvieran bigotes». That is: "that they had whiskers (or "having whiskers") subtracted them (=points)".



                "Normalizing" and making everything explicit, this would be




                La belleza de las cajas sumaba puntos, pero que tuvieran bigotes los restaba.







                share|improve this answer


























                  3












                  3








                  3







                  Based on the comment OP made in a different question ("I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works"), I propose another way of analyzing the second sentence. To me it's clear that this is neither an impersonal sentence nor is the subject implicit.



                  The sentence consists of two propositions coordinated by the conjunction pero:




                  1. sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas

                  2. los restaba que tuvieran bigotes


                  In (1) the subject is «la belleza de las cajas». It's after the verb instead of before, but that's not unusual in Spanish. What this proposition means is that "the beauty of the boxes added points", i.e. when there was beauty in the boxes, that beauty counted for more points. Puntos is the direct object of sumaba.



                  In (2) we have a plural 3rd person pronoun, los, which stands for puntos and is the direct object of the verb restaba. The subject in this proposition is the subordinate phrase «que tuvieran bigotes». That is: "that they had whiskers (or "having whiskers") subtracted them (=points)".



                  "Normalizing" and making everything explicit, this would be




                  La belleza de las cajas sumaba puntos, pero que tuvieran bigotes los restaba.







                  share|improve this answer













                  Based on the comment OP made in a different question ("I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works"), I propose another way of analyzing the second sentence. To me it's clear that this is neither an impersonal sentence nor is the subject implicit.



                  The sentence consists of two propositions coordinated by the conjunction pero:




                  1. sumaba puntos la belleza de las cajas

                  2. los restaba que tuvieran bigotes


                  In (1) the subject is «la belleza de las cajas». It's after the verb instead of before, but that's not unusual in Spanish. What this proposition means is that "the beauty of the boxes added points", i.e. when there was beauty in the boxes, that beauty counted for more points. Puntos is the direct object of sumaba.



                  In (2) we have a plural 3rd person pronoun, los, which stands for puntos and is the direct object of the verb restaba. The subject in this proposition is the subordinate phrase «que tuvieran bigotes». That is: "that they had whiskers (or "having whiskers") subtracted them (=points)".



                  "Normalizing" and making everything explicit, this would be




                  La belleza de las cajas sumaba puntos, pero que tuvieran bigotes los restaba.








                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 7 hours ago









                  pablodf76pablodf76

                  21.9k11466




                  21.9k11466























                      0














                      Basically, it is saying the following:




                      The professor awarded points to the students based on the beauty of their boxes
                      and took off points if the boxes had whiskers (imagine a mouse's whiskers...)




                      And for the following:




                      los restaba que tuvieran bigotes




                      First of all, "los" refers to the points and not the boxes, so using las is inappropriate in this case. It's already clear what he is taking the points off for (the boxes) so it is unnecessary to repeat it. No other prepositions are needed to clarify in Spanish, though from an English perspective, it is a different way of employing language.






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                        – Alan O'Donnell
                        7 hours ago
















                      0














                      Basically, it is saying the following:




                      The professor awarded points to the students based on the beauty of their boxes
                      and took off points if the boxes had whiskers (imagine a mouse's whiskers...)




                      And for the following:




                      los restaba que tuvieran bigotes




                      First of all, "los" refers to the points and not the boxes, so using las is inappropriate in this case. It's already clear what he is taking the points off for (the boxes) so it is unnecessary to repeat it. No other prepositions are needed to clarify in Spanish, though from an English perspective, it is a different way of employing language.






                      share|improve this answer


























                      • Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                        – Alan O'Donnell
                        7 hours ago














                      0












                      0








                      0







                      Basically, it is saying the following:




                      The professor awarded points to the students based on the beauty of their boxes
                      and took off points if the boxes had whiskers (imagine a mouse's whiskers...)




                      And for the following:




                      los restaba que tuvieran bigotes




                      First of all, "los" refers to the points and not the boxes, so using las is inappropriate in this case. It's already clear what he is taking the points off for (the boxes) so it is unnecessary to repeat it. No other prepositions are needed to clarify in Spanish, though from an English perspective, it is a different way of employing language.






                      share|improve this answer















                      Basically, it is saying the following:




                      The professor awarded points to the students based on the beauty of their boxes
                      and took off points if the boxes had whiskers (imagine a mouse's whiskers...)




                      And for the following:




                      los restaba que tuvieran bigotes




                      First of all, "los" refers to the points and not the boxes, so using las is inappropriate in this case. It's already clear what he is taking the points off for (the boxes) so it is unnecessary to repeat it. No other prepositions are needed to clarify in Spanish, though from an English perspective, it is a different way of employing language.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 7 hours ago

























                      answered 7 hours ago









                      KarlomanioKarlomanio

                      41529




                      41529













                      • Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                        – Alan O'Donnell
                        7 hours ago



















                      • Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                        – Alan O'Donnell
                        7 hours ago

















                      Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                      – Alan O'Donnell
                      7 hours ago





                      Sorry, I should have been clearer—I understand what the passage means, I'm just confused about how the Spanish grammar works.

                      – Alan O'Donnell
                      7 hours ago











                      -1














                      I think, it is a rather lousy translation. I haven't read the English version but anyway, the translator could (as you well said) add one or two prepositions and make the passage a little more clear. However, as it is, i would interpret the text in these two ways:





                      1. La profesora McGonagall es el sujeto implícito en la segunda oración




                        La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [La profesora McGonagall] Ssumaba puntos [por] la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.





                      2. El sustantibo implícito de la segunda oración es abstracto




                        La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [Se] Ssumaba puntos [por conseguir] la belleza de las cajas, pero los [se] restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.









                      share|improve this answer






























                        -1














                        I think, it is a rather lousy translation. I haven't read the English version but anyway, the translator could (as you well said) add one or two prepositions and make the passage a little more clear. However, as it is, i would interpret the text in these two ways:





                        1. La profesora McGonagall es el sujeto implícito en la segunda oración




                          La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [La profesora McGonagall] Ssumaba puntos [por] la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.





                        2. El sustantibo implícito de la segunda oración es abstracto




                          La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [Se] Ssumaba puntos [por conseguir] la belleza de las cajas, pero los [se] restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.









                        share|improve this answer




























                          -1












                          -1








                          -1







                          I think, it is a rather lousy translation. I haven't read the English version but anyway, the translator could (as you well said) add one or two prepositions and make the passage a little more clear. However, as it is, i would interpret the text in these two ways:





                          1. La profesora McGonagall es el sujeto implícito en la segunda oración




                            La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [La profesora McGonagall] Ssumaba puntos [por] la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.





                          2. El sustantibo implícito de la segunda oración es abstracto




                            La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [Se] Ssumaba puntos [por conseguir] la belleza de las cajas, pero los [se] restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.









                          share|improve this answer















                          I think, it is a rather lousy translation. I haven't read the English version but anyway, the translator could (as you well said) add one or two prepositions and make the passage a little more clear. However, as it is, i would interpret the text in these two ways:





                          1. La profesora McGonagall es el sujeto implícito en la segunda oración




                            La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [La profesora McGonagall] Ssumaba puntos [por] la belleza de las cajas, pero los restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.





                          2. El sustantibo implícito de la segunda oración es abstracto




                            La profesora McGonagall los observó mientras convertían un ratón en una caja de rapé. [Se] Ssumaba puntos [por conseguir] la belleza de las cajas, pero los [se] restaba que [porque las cajas] tuvieran bigotes.










                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








                          edited 7 hours ago

























                          answered 7 hours ago









                          KraussKrauss

                          1,561218




                          1,561218






























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