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Could quantum mechanics be necessary to analyze some biology scenarios?


Why is a classical formalism necessary for quantum mechanics?What is the math knowledge necessary for starting Quantum Mechanics?How necessary is the “exponential explosion” in quantum mechanics?A thought experiment with Heisenberg's Uncertainty PrincipleCould quantum mechanics work without the Born rule?I am learning Quantum Mechanics and I have some questions about some basic conceptHeisenberg uncertainty principle clarificationDoes quantum mechanics play a role in the brain?What are some resources for Algebraic quantum mechanics for PhysicistsWhy can't we make shrink/grow rays?













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$begingroup$


As an example, we could talk about a neuron cell in brain, with a size of $1 mu m$ (=$10^{-6}$ m), being the distance between one neuron and next one in a synaptic connection of around 40 nm (=$40 cdot 10^{-9}$ m) (reference).



According to my information, atomic radius are around 100 pm ($10^{-10}$m), not very far of the synapse size (factor of 400).



Thus, my question is, could quantum mechanics be necessary to analyze biological scenarios, such as neuron cell interaction, etc ?



I've read several examples about why take into account quantum effects, as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is "useless" at the scale of usual objects (say a rocket), but what about at the scale of cells ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
    $endgroup$
    – Thomas Fritsch
    yesterday








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
    $endgroup$
    – Barmar
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    2 hours ago


















20












$begingroup$


As an example, we could talk about a neuron cell in brain, with a size of $1 mu m$ (=$10^{-6}$ m), being the distance between one neuron and next one in a synaptic connection of around 40 nm (=$40 cdot 10^{-9}$ m) (reference).



According to my information, atomic radius are around 100 pm ($10^{-10}$m), not very far of the synapse size (factor of 400).



Thus, my question is, could quantum mechanics be necessary to analyze biological scenarios, such as neuron cell interaction, etc ?



I've read several examples about why take into account quantum effects, as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is "useless" at the scale of usual objects (say a rocket), but what about at the scale of cells ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
    $endgroup$
    – Thomas Fritsch
    yesterday








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
    $endgroup$
    – Barmar
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    2 hours ago
















20












20








20


6



$begingroup$


As an example, we could talk about a neuron cell in brain, with a size of $1 mu m$ (=$10^{-6}$ m), being the distance between one neuron and next one in a synaptic connection of around 40 nm (=$40 cdot 10^{-9}$ m) (reference).



According to my information, atomic radius are around 100 pm ($10^{-10}$m), not very far of the synapse size (factor of 400).



Thus, my question is, could quantum mechanics be necessary to analyze biological scenarios, such as neuron cell interaction, etc ?



I've read several examples about why take into account quantum effects, as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is "useless" at the scale of usual objects (say a rocket), but what about at the scale of cells ?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




As an example, we could talk about a neuron cell in brain, with a size of $1 mu m$ (=$10^{-6}$ m), being the distance between one neuron and next one in a synaptic connection of around 40 nm (=$40 cdot 10^{-9}$ m) (reference).



According to my information, atomic radius are around 100 pm ($10^{-10}$m), not very far of the synapse size (factor of 400).



Thus, my question is, could quantum mechanics be necessary to analyze biological scenarios, such as neuron cell interaction, etc ?



I've read several examples about why take into account quantum effects, as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, is "useless" at the scale of usual objects (say a rocket), but what about at the scale of cells ?







quantum-mechanics biophysics biology






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 16 hours ago









299792458

2,78652029




2,78652029










asked yesterday









pasaba por aquipasaba por aqui

262114




262114








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
    $endgroup$
    – Thomas Fritsch
    yesterday








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
    $endgroup$
    – Barmar
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    2 hours ago
















  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
    $endgroup$
    – Thomas Fritsch
    yesterday








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    5 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
    $endgroup$
    – Barmar
    2 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    2 hours ago










2




2




$begingroup$
This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
$endgroup$
– Thomas Fritsch
yesterday






$begingroup$
This question would be even more relevant to the functional structures embedded in the synapse membrane (receptors, re-uptake pumps, voltage-gated $Ca^{++}$ channels, all having sizes around 5 nm).
$endgroup$
– Thomas Fritsch
yesterday






1




1




$begingroup$
There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
There are already papers suggesting strongly that photosynthesis and the energy storage mechanisms surrounding it depend on quantum effects (besides the obvious photon-absorption mechanism)
$endgroup$
– Carl Witthoft
5 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Note that there's a whole Penrose controversial thing about quantum-in-brains. (Outlined in an answer below.)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Fattie I wonder if his hypothesis reflects confusion between quantum theory and chaos theory. Although I'm hesitant to attribute such a simple mistake to someone like Penrose.
$endgroup$
– Barmar
2 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
2 hours ago






$begingroup$
@Barmar I mean that whole Penrose quantum-mind theory business is a huge topic of discussion; many just dismiss it as silly stuff. IDK. I just mention it as it is the most prominent topic related to the OP's question.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
2 hours ago












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















11












$begingroup$

It should be said that a few years ago (around 2007 I believe) there has been some fuzz in the physics community after some researchers found (some) evidence of quantum behavior in biological systems. Most notably some bacteria. In one of these experiments quantum effects (at ambient temperature!) were observed in the FMO complex and involved say, coherent assisted transport of excitations.
I don't think the results are disputed but I believe the consensus nowadays is that, in a way, those measurements are so precise that after all is not that surprising if a (tiny) effect becomes observables.



There were other biological systems where quantum effects were predicted or observed (avian compass is another one, and even a model for sensing odor) but these were more controversial.



I will add some references if you are interested. Googling FMO complex or quantum-biology should give you plenty of hits.



Added Edit



In fact there is even a Wikipedia page which is quite explanatory



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    9












    $begingroup$

    So the short answer is that we don't 100% know but most physicists do not think so.



    The reason that they do not think so comes down to two things: Ehrenfest’s theorem and decoherence.



    Ehrenfest’s theorem is a bound on how weird quantum mechanics can be. It says that on average quantum mechanics is not weird: particular measurement outcomes get correlated in weird ways but the average picture looks always like classical mechanics would say it looks.



    Decoherence says that quantum things start to average out as soon as they get entangled with some broader outside world. So for example a protein folding in water is constantly entangling with those water molecules which constantly entangle with each other, and so the interesting correlations cannot be measured on the protein itself anymore but we would have to involve all of the water molecules too.



    Note that the actual physical size does not matter at all to QM: Quantum does not really mean “small” and we have created tests of QM spanning kilometers. It just requires “isolated” things, and small nanoscale systems and single atoms happen to be isolated from their surroundings more often than big things like baseballs flying through the many air atoms knocking them all out of the way.



    When you combine those two together you get a result that once a system is immersed in constant interactions with an environment, quantum mechanics only has two sorts of effects:




    1. the system carves out a space inside of it which is isolated from the environment, and arbitrary quantum stuff happens in that space, or

    2. the system displays some big features of a bunch of little quantum "nudges" to the classical picture -- something doesn't happen in quite the way that you would have expected for example.


    So for example the pigments that plants use to convert light into chemical energy only absorb certain wavelengths of light, and this is a little quantum nudge (quantum systems frequently have discrete energy transitions and preferentially absorb photons that have an energy between the two states), and there is a quantum "stickiness" that molecules have towards each other called the van der Waals interaction that is crucial for understanding lots of different chemistry.



    Biological structures that would display deeply quantum features would therefore generally have to create a safe, non-interacting space for a quantum state to be preserved. This is why the slightly cooky among us like Penrose start from examples like cytoskeleton tubules: they are looking for quantum computation in cells and so they are very interested in the tiny little spaces that are walled off from the rest of the world. It is also why smart non-physicists like Searle are very careful to say something like “look I just want to import the bulk features of our quantum realm like nondeterminism but then explain things as classical physics+nondeterminism rather than getting super cooky for quantum mechanics,” he wants to use the bulk features that come from a lot of little nudges rather than make the appeal Penrose is making that somehow the brain is a quantum computer because its cells are quantum computers.



    It's not that it's wrong to say that it's a quantum system: because undoubtedly it is, everything is! It's just that one might expect synapses for example to probably have a very good classical approximation with maybe a couple quantum nudges, because those synapses are coupled strongly with all of the warm, wet, noisy things around it.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 12




      $begingroup$
      Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
      $endgroup$
      – Peter Shor
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
      $endgroup$
      – pasaba por aqui
      yesterday








    • 10




      $begingroup$
      The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
      $endgroup$
      – dmckee
      23 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
      $endgroup$
      – CR Drost
      4 hours ago



















    6












    $begingroup$

    I'll discuss two controversial "quantum mechanics explains it" issues in biophysics.



    A biophysical explanation of olfaction remains incomplete. It mostly centres on two models, neither of which can explain all data, but it's possible olfaction uses a combination of both effects (and possibly also something else). One model, the docking theory, is preferred; it relies on how molecules interact through shape and chemistry. The other, the vibrational, theory, depends on quantum tunnelling.



    Orchestrated objective reduction posits that consciousness relies on quantum effects in neurons. This is at odds with the usual view that connections between neurons are responsible. However, physicists as eminent as Roger Penrose have worked on and championed Orch OR, which is why I'm risking it being mainstream enough for inclusion in an answer here despite our policies. Penrose conjectures that superpositions form spacetime "blisters" that undergo OR in a time $hbar/E_G$, with $E_G$ the blister's gravitational self-energy. A radius-$R$ density-$rho$ neuron has mass $M=frac{4pirho R^3}{3}$, GPE $E_G=frac{3GM^2}{5R}=frac{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}{15}$ and OR timescale $frac{15hbar}{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}$. For $rho =10^3text{kg},text{m}^{-3},,R=10^{-5}text{m}$ (if you'll pardon such approximations of a neuron) this is $1.5mutext{s}$. Take any such number with a pinch of salt, though, because neurons vary in size.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
      $endgroup$
      – Fattie
      3 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$

    I can't pull a simple quote from this Physics World article, but it has a pretty decent history of the discoveries and analyses which may or may not demonstrate quantum effects in the photosynthesis to energy storage process in plants.



    My take is that it hasn't definitely been disproved or proved just yet.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

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      active

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      active

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      11












      $begingroup$

      It should be said that a few years ago (around 2007 I believe) there has been some fuzz in the physics community after some researchers found (some) evidence of quantum behavior in biological systems. Most notably some bacteria. In one of these experiments quantum effects (at ambient temperature!) were observed in the FMO complex and involved say, coherent assisted transport of excitations.
      I don't think the results are disputed but I believe the consensus nowadays is that, in a way, those measurements are so precise that after all is not that surprising if a (tiny) effect becomes observables.



      There were other biological systems where quantum effects were predicted or observed (avian compass is another one, and even a model for sensing odor) but these were more controversial.



      I will add some references if you are interested. Googling FMO complex or quantum-biology should give you plenty of hits.



      Added Edit



      In fact there is even a Wikipedia page which is quite explanatory



      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        11












        $begingroup$

        It should be said that a few years ago (around 2007 I believe) there has been some fuzz in the physics community after some researchers found (some) evidence of quantum behavior in biological systems. Most notably some bacteria. In one of these experiments quantum effects (at ambient temperature!) were observed in the FMO complex and involved say, coherent assisted transport of excitations.
        I don't think the results are disputed but I believe the consensus nowadays is that, in a way, those measurements are so precise that after all is not that surprising if a (tiny) effect becomes observables.



        There were other biological systems where quantum effects were predicted or observed (avian compass is another one, and even a model for sensing odor) but these were more controversial.



        I will add some references if you are interested. Googling FMO complex or quantum-biology should give you plenty of hits.



        Added Edit



        In fact there is even a Wikipedia page which is quite explanatory



        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          11












          11








          11





          $begingroup$

          It should be said that a few years ago (around 2007 I believe) there has been some fuzz in the physics community after some researchers found (some) evidence of quantum behavior in biological systems. Most notably some bacteria. In one of these experiments quantum effects (at ambient temperature!) were observed in the FMO complex and involved say, coherent assisted transport of excitations.
          I don't think the results are disputed but I believe the consensus nowadays is that, in a way, those measurements are so precise that after all is not that surprising if a (tiny) effect becomes observables.



          There were other biological systems where quantum effects were predicted or observed (avian compass is another one, and even a model for sensing odor) but these were more controversial.



          I will add some references if you are interested. Googling FMO complex or quantum-biology should give you plenty of hits.



          Added Edit



          In fact there is even a Wikipedia page which is quite explanatory



          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          It should be said that a few years ago (around 2007 I believe) there has been some fuzz in the physics community after some researchers found (some) evidence of quantum behavior in biological systems. Most notably some bacteria. In one of these experiments quantum effects (at ambient temperature!) were observed in the FMO complex and involved say, coherent assisted transport of excitations.
          I don't think the results are disputed but I believe the consensus nowadays is that, in a way, those measurements are so precise that after all is not that surprising if a (tiny) effect becomes observables.



          There were other biological systems where quantum effects were predicted or observed (avian compass is another one, and even a model for sensing odor) but these were more controversial.



          I will add some references if you are interested. Googling FMO complex or quantum-biology should give you plenty of hits.



          Added Edit



          In fact there is even a Wikipedia page which is quite explanatory



          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_biology







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          lcvlcv

          55326




          55326























              9












              $begingroup$

              So the short answer is that we don't 100% know but most physicists do not think so.



              The reason that they do not think so comes down to two things: Ehrenfest’s theorem and decoherence.



              Ehrenfest’s theorem is a bound on how weird quantum mechanics can be. It says that on average quantum mechanics is not weird: particular measurement outcomes get correlated in weird ways but the average picture looks always like classical mechanics would say it looks.



              Decoherence says that quantum things start to average out as soon as they get entangled with some broader outside world. So for example a protein folding in water is constantly entangling with those water molecules which constantly entangle with each other, and so the interesting correlations cannot be measured on the protein itself anymore but we would have to involve all of the water molecules too.



              Note that the actual physical size does not matter at all to QM: Quantum does not really mean “small” and we have created tests of QM spanning kilometers. It just requires “isolated” things, and small nanoscale systems and single atoms happen to be isolated from their surroundings more often than big things like baseballs flying through the many air atoms knocking them all out of the way.



              When you combine those two together you get a result that once a system is immersed in constant interactions with an environment, quantum mechanics only has two sorts of effects:




              1. the system carves out a space inside of it which is isolated from the environment, and arbitrary quantum stuff happens in that space, or

              2. the system displays some big features of a bunch of little quantum "nudges" to the classical picture -- something doesn't happen in quite the way that you would have expected for example.


              So for example the pigments that plants use to convert light into chemical energy only absorb certain wavelengths of light, and this is a little quantum nudge (quantum systems frequently have discrete energy transitions and preferentially absorb photons that have an energy between the two states), and there is a quantum "stickiness" that molecules have towards each other called the van der Waals interaction that is crucial for understanding lots of different chemistry.



              Biological structures that would display deeply quantum features would therefore generally have to create a safe, non-interacting space for a quantum state to be preserved. This is why the slightly cooky among us like Penrose start from examples like cytoskeleton tubules: they are looking for quantum computation in cells and so they are very interested in the tiny little spaces that are walled off from the rest of the world. It is also why smart non-physicists like Searle are very careful to say something like “look I just want to import the bulk features of our quantum realm like nondeterminism but then explain things as classical physics+nondeterminism rather than getting super cooky for quantum mechanics,” he wants to use the bulk features that come from a lot of little nudges rather than make the appeal Penrose is making that somehow the brain is a quantum computer because its cells are quantum computers.



              It's not that it's wrong to say that it's a quantum system: because undoubtedly it is, everything is! It's just that one might expect synapses for example to probably have a very good classical approximation with maybe a couple quantum nudges, because those synapses are coupled strongly with all of the warm, wet, noisy things around it.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 12




                $begingroup$
                Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
                $endgroup$
                – Peter Shor
                yesterday












              • $begingroup$
                @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
                $endgroup$
                – pasaba por aqui
                yesterday








              • 10




                $begingroup$
                The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
                $endgroup$
                – dmckee
                23 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
                $endgroup$
                – CR Drost
                4 hours ago
















              9












              $begingroup$

              So the short answer is that we don't 100% know but most physicists do not think so.



              The reason that they do not think so comes down to two things: Ehrenfest’s theorem and decoherence.



              Ehrenfest’s theorem is a bound on how weird quantum mechanics can be. It says that on average quantum mechanics is not weird: particular measurement outcomes get correlated in weird ways but the average picture looks always like classical mechanics would say it looks.



              Decoherence says that quantum things start to average out as soon as they get entangled with some broader outside world. So for example a protein folding in water is constantly entangling with those water molecules which constantly entangle with each other, and so the interesting correlations cannot be measured on the protein itself anymore but we would have to involve all of the water molecules too.



              Note that the actual physical size does not matter at all to QM: Quantum does not really mean “small” and we have created tests of QM spanning kilometers. It just requires “isolated” things, and small nanoscale systems and single atoms happen to be isolated from their surroundings more often than big things like baseballs flying through the many air atoms knocking them all out of the way.



              When you combine those two together you get a result that once a system is immersed in constant interactions with an environment, quantum mechanics only has two sorts of effects:




              1. the system carves out a space inside of it which is isolated from the environment, and arbitrary quantum stuff happens in that space, or

              2. the system displays some big features of a bunch of little quantum "nudges" to the classical picture -- something doesn't happen in quite the way that you would have expected for example.


              So for example the pigments that plants use to convert light into chemical energy only absorb certain wavelengths of light, and this is a little quantum nudge (quantum systems frequently have discrete energy transitions and preferentially absorb photons that have an energy between the two states), and there is a quantum "stickiness" that molecules have towards each other called the van der Waals interaction that is crucial for understanding lots of different chemistry.



              Biological structures that would display deeply quantum features would therefore generally have to create a safe, non-interacting space for a quantum state to be preserved. This is why the slightly cooky among us like Penrose start from examples like cytoskeleton tubules: they are looking for quantum computation in cells and so they are very interested in the tiny little spaces that are walled off from the rest of the world. It is also why smart non-physicists like Searle are very careful to say something like “look I just want to import the bulk features of our quantum realm like nondeterminism but then explain things as classical physics+nondeterminism rather than getting super cooky for quantum mechanics,” he wants to use the bulk features that come from a lot of little nudges rather than make the appeal Penrose is making that somehow the brain is a quantum computer because its cells are quantum computers.



              It's not that it's wrong to say that it's a quantum system: because undoubtedly it is, everything is! It's just that one might expect synapses for example to probably have a very good classical approximation with maybe a couple quantum nudges, because those synapses are coupled strongly with all of the warm, wet, noisy things around it.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 12




                $begingroup$
                Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
                $endgroup$
                – Peter Shor
                yesterday












              • $begingroup$
                @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
                $endgroup$
                – pasaba por aqui
                yesterday








              • 10




                $begingroup$
                The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
                $endgroup$
                – dmckee
                23 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
                $endgroup$
                – CR Drost
                4 hours ago














              9












              9








              9





              $begingroup$

              So the short answer is that we don't 100% know but most physicists do not think so.



              The reason that they do not think so comes down to two things: Ehrenfest’s theorem and decoherence.



              Ehrenfest’s theorem is a bound on how weird quantum mechanics can be. It says that on average quantum mechanics is not weird: particular measurement outcomes get correlated in weird ways but the average picture looks always like classical mechanics would say it looks.



              Decoherence says that quantum things start to average out as soon as they get entangled with some broader outside world. So for example a protein folding in water is constantly entangling with those water molecules which constantly entangle with each other, and so the interesting correlations cannot be measured on the protein itself anymore but we would have to involve all of the water molecules too.



              Note that the actual physical size does not matter at all to QM: Quantum does not really mean “small” and we have created tests of QM spanning kilometers. It just requires “isolated” things, and small nanoscale systems and single atoms happen to be isolated from their surroundings more often than big things like baseballs flying through the many air atoms knocking them all out of the way.



              When you combine those two together you get a result that once a system is immersed in constant interactions with an environment, quantum mechanics only has two sorts of effects:




              1. the system carves out a space inside of it which is isolated from the environment, and arbitrary quantum stuff happens in that space, or

              2. the system displays some big features of a bunch of little quantum "nudges" to the classical picture -- something doesn't happen in quite the way that you would have expected for example.


              So for example the pigments that plants use to convert light into chemical energy only absorb certain wavelengths of light, and this is a little quantum nudge (quantum systems frequently have discrete energy transitions and preferentially absorb photons that have an energy between the two states), and there is a quantum "stickiness" that molecules have towards each other called the van der Waals interaction that is crucial for understanding lots of different chemistry.



              Biological structures that would display deeply quantum features would therefore generally have to create a safe, non-interacting space for a quantum state to be preserved. This is why the slightly cooky among us like Penrose start from examples like cytoskeleton tubules: they are looking for quantum computation in cells and so they are very interested in the tiny little spaces that are walled off from the rest of the world. It is also why smart non-physicists like Searle are very careful to say something like “look I just want to import the bulk features of our quantum realm like nondeterminism but then explain things as classical physics+nondeterminism rather than getting super cooky for quantum mechanics,” he wants to use the bulk features that come from a lot of little nudges rather than make the appeal Penrose is making that somehow the brain is a quantum computer because its cells are quantum computers.



              It's not that it's wrong to say that it's a quantum system: because undoubtedly it is, everything is! It's just that one might expect synapses for example to probably have a very good classical approximation with maybe a couple quantum nudges, because those synapses are coupled strongly with all of the warm, wet, noisy things around it.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              So the short answer is that we don't 100% know but most physicists do not think so.



              The reason that they do not think so comes down to two things: Ehrenfest’s theorem and decoherence.



              Ehrenfest’s theorem is a bound on how weird quantum mechanics can be. It says that on average quantum mechanics is not weird: particular measurement outcomes get correlated in weird ways but the average picture looks always like classical mechanics would say it looks.



              Decoherence says that quantum things start to average out as soon as they get entangled with some broader outside world. So for example a protein folding in water is constantly entangling with those water molecules which constantly entangle with each other, and so the interesting correlations cannot be measured on the protein itself anymore but we would have to involve all of the water molecules too.



              Note that the actual physical size does not matter at all to QM: Quantum does not really mean “small” and we have created tests of QM spanning kilometers. It just requires “isolated” things, and small nanoscale systems and single atoms happen to be isolated from their surroundings more often than big things like baseballs flying through the many air atoms knocking them all out of the way.



              When you combine those two together you get a result that once a system is immersed in constant interactions with an environment, quantum mechanics only has two sorts of effects:




              1. the system carves out a space inside of it which is isolated from the environment, and arbitrary quantum stuff happens in that space, or

              2. the system displays some big features of a bunch of little quantum "nudges" to the classical picture -- something doesn't happen in quite the way that you would have expected for example.


              So for example the pigments that plants use to convert light into chemical energy only absorb certain wavelengths of light, and this is a little quantum nudge (quantum systems frequently have discrete energy transitions and preferentially absorb photons that have an energy between the two states), and there is a quantum "stickiness" that molecules have towards each other called the van der Waals interaction that is crucial for understanding lots of different chemistry.



              Biological structures that would display deeply quantum features would therefore generally have to create a safe, non-interacting space for a quantum state to be preserved. This is why the slightly cooky among us like Penrose start from examples like cytoskeleton tubules: they are looking for quantum computation in cells and so they are very interested in the tiny little spaces that are walled off from the rest of the world. It is also why smart non-physicists like Searle are very careful to say something like “look I just want to import the bulk features of our quantum realm like nondeterminism but then explain things as classical physics+nondeterminism rather than getting super cooky for quantum mechanics,” he wants to use the bulk features that come from a lot of little nudges rather than make the appeal Penrose is making that somehow the brain is a quantum computer because its cells are quantum computers.



              It's not that it's wrong to say that it's a quantum system: because undoubtedly it is, everything is! It's just that one might expect synapses for example to probably have a very good classical approximation with maybe a couple quantum nudges, because those synapses are coupled strongly with all of the warm, wet, noisy things around it.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited 4 hours ago

























              answered yesterday









              CR DrostCR Drost

              21.9k11959




              21.9k11959








              • 12




                $begingroup$
                Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
                $endgroup$
                – Peter Shor
                yesterday












              • $begingroup$
                @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
                $endgroup$
                – pasaba por aqui
                yesterday








              • 10




                $begingroup$
                The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
                $endgroup$
                – dmckee
                23 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
                $endgroup$
                – CR Drost
                4 hours ago














              • 12




                $begingroup$
                Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
                $endgroup$
                – Peter Shor
                yesterday












              • $begingroup$
                @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
                $endgroup$
                – pasaba por aqui
                yesterday








              • 10




                $begingroup$
                The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
                $endgroup$
                – dmckee
                23 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
                $endgroup$
                – CR Drost
                4 hours ago








              12




              12




              $begingroup$
              Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
              $endgroup$
              – Peter Shor
              yesterday






              $begingroup$
              Physicists may not think so, but chemists are absolutely positive that molecules are unavoidably quantum. Protein folding deals with molecules, so it very likely needs quantum mechanics to explain it fully. See this question on chemistry.SE. Neurons are much larger than proteins, so neurons are probably not quantum.
              $endgroup$
              – Peter Shor
              yesterday














              $begingroup$
              @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
              $endgroup$
              – pasaba por aqui
              yesterday






              $begingroup$
              @Peter Shor: neurons are "big" (some of them several meters), but their communication methods (where "memory is stored") are composed / use very smaller parts: synapses, gates, amino-acid carriers, ... .
              $endgroup$
              – pasaba por aqui
              yesterday






              10




              10




              $begingroup$
              The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
              $endgroup$
              – dmckee
              23 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              The issue isn't if quantum mechanics plays a role or not—it underlies *everything*—but when and where lumped models and effective theories are more useful and more solvable. Once upon a time it was easy to say that biology was a realm where the less fundamental theories were always better. Improved measurement techniques allow us to see quantum mechanics in action in some biological systems but it may still be more useful or tractable to describe those systems in effective terms. These are the question that you ask when you work in the fuzzy boundaries between fields.
              $endgroup$
              – dmckee
              23 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
              $endgroup$
              – CR Drost
              4 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              @PeterShor Hey, it's an honor to be commented on by a personal hero! Thanks! I edited the thing a little bit to hopefully make it a little more clear that my example of how Searle is trying to think about quantum neurobiology is really a bit of a different beast from what I was saying about "must create an isolated space" since it imports a quantum-origin effect without describing it quantum-mechanically. But I wanted to say thank you for the link, was a pleasure to read.
              $endgroup$
              – CR Drost
              4 hours ago











              6












              $begingroup$

              I'll discuss two controversial "quantum mechanics explains it" issues in biophysics.



              A biophysical explanation of olfaction remains incomplete. It mostly centres on two models, neither of which can explain all data, but it's possible olfaction uses a combination of both effects (and possibly also something else). One model, the docking theory, is preferred; it relies on how molecules interact through shape and chemistry. The other, the vibrational, theory, depends on quantum tunnelling.



              Orchestrated objective reduction posits that consciousness relies on quantum effects in neurons. This is at odds with the usual view that connections between neurons are responsible. However, physicists as eminent as Roger Penrose have worked on and championed Orch OR, which is why I'm risking it being mainstream enough for inclusion in an answer here despite our policies. Penrose conjectures that superpositions form spacetime "blisters" that undergo OR in a time $hbar/E_G$, with $E_G$ the blister's gravitational self-energy. A radius-$R$ density-$rho$ neuron has mass $M=frac{4pirho R^3}{3}$, GPE $E_G=frac{3GM^2}{5R}=frac{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}{15}$ and OR timescale $frac{15hbar}{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}$. For $rho =10^3text{kg},text{m}^{-3},,R=10^{-5}text{m}$ (if you'll pardon such approximations of a neuron) this is $1.5mutext{s}$. Take any such number with a pinch of salt, though, because neurons vary in size.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
                $endgroup$
                – Fattie
                3 hours ago
















              6












              $begingroup$

              I'll discuss two controversial "quantum mechanics explains it" issues in biophysics.



              A biophysical explanation of olfaction remains incomplete. It mostly centres on two models, neither of which can explain all data, but it's possible olfaction uses a combination of both effects (and possibly also something else). One model, the docking theory, is preferred; it relies on how molecules interact through shape and chemistry. The other, the vibrational, theory, depends on quantum tunnelling.



              Orchestrated objective reduction posits that consciousness relies on quantum effects in neurons. This is at odds with the usual view that connections between neurons are responsible. However, physicists as eminent as Roger Penrose have worked on and championed Orch OR, which is why I'm risking it being mainstream enough for inclusion in an answer here despite our policies. Penrose conjectures that superpositions form spacetime "blisters" that undergo OR in a time $hbar/E_G$, with $E_G$ the blister's gravitational self-energy. A radius-$R$ density-$rho$ neuron has mass $M=frac{4pirho R^3}{3}$, GPE $E_G=frac{3GM^2}{5R}=frac{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}{15}$ and OR timescale $frac{15hbar}{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}$. For $rho =10^3text{kg},text{m}^{-3},,R=10^{-5}text{m}$ (if you'll pardon such approximations of a neuron) this is $1.5mutext{s}$. Take any such number with a pinch of salt, though, because neurons vary in size.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
                $endgroup$
                – Fattie
                3 hours ago














              6












              6








              6





              $begingroup$

              I'll discuss two controversial "quantum mechanics explains it" issues in biophysics.



              A biophysical explanation of olfaction remains incomplete. It mostly centres on two models, neither of which can explain all data, but it's possible olfaction uses a combination of both effects (and possibly also something else). One model, the docking theory, is preferred; it relies on how molecules interact through shape and chemistry. The other, the vibrational, theory, depends on quantum tunnelling.



              Orchestrated objective reduction posits that consciousness relies on quantum effects in neurons. This is at odds with the usual view that connections between neurons are responsible. However, physicists as eminent as Roger Penrose have worked on and championed Orch OR, which is why I'm risking it being mainstream enough for inclusion in an answer here despite our policies. Penrose conjectures that superpositions form spacetime "blisters" that undergo OR in a time $hbar/E_G$, with $E_G$ the blister's gravitational self-energy. A radius-$R$ density-$rho$ neuron has mass $M=frac{4pirho R^3}{3}$, GPE $E_G=frac{3GM^2}{5R}=frac{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}{15}$ and OR timescale $frac{15hbar}{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}$. For $rho =10^3text{kg},text{m}^{-3},,R=10^{-5}text{m}$ (if you'll pardon such approximations of a neuron) this is $1.5mutext{s}$. Take any such number with a pinch of salt, though, because neurons vary in size.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              I'll discuss two controversial "quantum mechanics explains it" issues in biophysics.



              A biophysical explanation of olfaction remains incomplete. It mostly centres on two models, neither of which can explain all data, but it's possible olfaction uses a combination of both effects (and possibly also something else). One model, the docking theory, is preferred; it relies on how molecules interact through shape and chemistry. The other, the vibrational, theory, depends on quantum tunnelling.



              Orchestrated objective reduction posits that consciousness relies on quantum effects in neurons. This is at odds with the usual view that connections between neurons are responsible. However, physicists as eminent as Roger Penrose have worked on and championed Orch OR, which is why I'm risking it being mainstream enough for inclusion in an answer here despite our policies. Penrose conjectures that superpositions form spacetime "blisters" that undergo OR in a time $hbar/E_G$, with $E_G$ the blister's gravitational self-energy. A radius-$R$ density-$rho$ neuron has mass $M=frac{4pirho R^3}{3}$, GPE $E_G=frac{3GM^2}{5R}=frac{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}{15}$ and OR timescale $frac{15hbar}{16pi^2 Grho^2 R^5}$. For $rho =10^3text{kg},text{m}^{-3},,R=10^{-5}text{m}$ (if you'll pardon such approximations of a neuron) this is $1.5mutext{s}$. Take any such number with a pinch of salt, though, because neurons vary in size.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered yesterday









              J.G.J.G.

              9,28921528




              9,28921528








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
                $endgroup$
                – Fattie
                3 hours ago














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
                $endgroup$
                – Fattie
                3 hours ago








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
              $endgroup$
              – Fattie
              3 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Fantastic answer, thanks for that!
              $endgroup$
              – Fattie
              3 hours ago











              1












              $begingroup$

              I can't pull a simple quote from this Physics World article, but it has a pretty decent history of the discoveries and analyses which may or may not demonstrate quantum effects in the photosynthesis to energy storage process in plants.



              My take is that it hasn't definitely been disproved or proved just yet.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                I can't pull a simple quote from this Physics World article, but it has a pretty decent history of the discoveries and analyses which may or may not demonstrate quantum effects in the photosynthesis to energy storage process in plants.



                My take is that it hasn't definitely been disproved or proved just yet.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  I can't pull a simple quote from this Physics World article, but it has a pretty decent history of the discoveries and analyses which may or may not demonstrate quantum effects in the photosynthesis to energy storage process in plants.



                  My take is that it hasn't definitely been disproved or proved just yet.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  I can't pull a simple quote from this Physics World article, but it has a pretty decent history of the discoveries and analyses which may or may not demonstrate quantum effects in the photosynthesis to energy storage process in plants.



                  My take is that it hasn't definitely been disproved or proved just yet.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 5 hours ago









                  Carl WitthoftCarl Witthoft

                  7,91011322




                  7,91011322






























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