Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If not, how are they classified as acids or bases?What is the pH of...
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Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If not, how are they classified as acids or bases?
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This answer states
$mathrm{pH}$ is the aqueous concentration of $ce{H3O+}$ or $ce{H+}$ ions in soution. I would not say that ice lacks $ce{H3O+}$ and $ce{OH-}$ ions as ice's structure would allow for such, however, since the ions are not in aqueous solution, the material cannot rightfully have a "$mathrm{pH}$" as we know it.
How does that generalize to solid acids and solid bases? Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If they don't have a pH, how would the solid form of a new compound then be classified as an acid or a base?
organic-chemistry acid-base ph
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This answer states
$mathrm{pH}$ is the aqueous concentration of $ce{H3O+}$ or $ce{H+}$ ions in soution. I would not say that ice lacks $ce{H3O+}$ and $ce{OH-}$ ions as ice's structure would allow for such, however, since the ions are not in aqueous solution, the material cannot rightfully have a "$mathrm{pH}$" as we know it.
How does that generalize to solid acids and solid bases? Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If they don't have a pH, how would the solid form of a new compound then be classified as an acid or a base?
organic-chemistry acid-base ph
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This answer states
$mathrm{pH}$ is the aqueous concentration of $ce{H3O+}$ or $ce{H+}$ ions in soution. I would not say that ice lacks $ce{H3O+}$ and $ce{OH-}$ ions as ice's structure would allow for such, however, since the ions are not in aqueous solution, the material cannot rightfully have a "$mathrm{pH}$" as we know it.
How does that generalize to solid acids and solid bases? Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If they don't have a pH, how would the solid form of a new compound then be classified as an acid or a base?
organic-chemistry acid-base ph
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
$endgroup$
This answer states
$mathrm{pH}$ is the aqueous concentration of $ce{H3O+}$ or $ce{H+}$ ions in soution. I would not say that ice lacks $ce{H3O+}$ and $ce{OH-}$ ions as ice's structure would allow for such, however, since the ions are not in aqueous solution, the material cannot rightfully have a "$mathrm{pH}$" as we know it.
How does that generalize to solid acids and solid bases? Can solid acids and bases have pH values? If they don't have a pH, how would the solid form of a new compound then be classified as an acid or a base?
organic-chemistry acid-base ph
organic-chemistry acid-base ph
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
edited 1 hour ago
uhoh
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
asked 2 hours ago
uhohuhoh
2,0821244
2,0821244
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I think we should not mix the concept of pH, which is purely an analytical measurement, with the concept of acid and bases. It is a common misconception that pH does not exist in organic solvents. As you already know, there are several views of an acid or bases. The current IUPAC version is "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) (see Brønsted acid) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair (see Lewis acid)." This definition does not require the presence of water or any pH value.
If we take pure dry HCl gas and ammonia gas and mix them. The reaction is a classic acid base reaction. Solid fumes of ammonium chloride are formed instantly. One may then ask a question of what is the pH of a gas? However gas phase acid base chemistry does exist and it can be studied by mass spectrometry but pH does not need to be invoked.
Now instead of asking the pH of solid acids/bases, a more realistic question is what is the surface pH of a given solid? I was interested in this type of problems sometime ago but didn't find much literature. Assume an ion-exchanger which consists of $ce{SO3-H+}$ groups on a solid polymeric matrix, basically sulfonate styrene divinylbenzene. Assume that it is in equilibrium with 1 mM HCl solution. The solution pH is 3, but what is the surface pH? It is certainly way below zero, because sulfonic acid is a very strong acid and the surface concentration of sulfonic acid groups is pretty high yet the groups are not mobile in the solution!
Similarly, solid acid catalysts exist. Also see how solid acids are titrated [1].
References
- Chai, S.-H.; Wang, H.-P.; Liang, Y.; Xu, B.-Q. Sustainable Production of Acrolein: Investigation of Solid Acid–Base Catalysts for Gas-Phase Dehydration of Glycerol. Green Chem. 2007, 9 (10), 1130–1136. https://doi.org/10.1039/B702200J.
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I think we should not mix the concept of pH, which is purely an analytical measurement, with the concept of acid and bases. It is a common misconception that pH does not exist in organic solvents. As you already know, there are several views of an acid or bases. The current IUPAC version is "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) (see Brønsted acid) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair (see Lewis acid)." This definition does not require the presence of water or any pH value.
If we take pure dry HCl gas and ammonia gas and mix them. The reaction is a classic acid base reaction. Solid fumes of ammonium chloride are formed instantly. One may then ask a question of what is the pH of a gas? However gas phase acid base chemistry does exist and it can be studied by mass spectrometry but pH does not need to be invoked.
Now instead of asking the pH of solid acids/bases, a more realistic question is what is the surface pH of a given solid? I was interested in this type of problems sometime ago but didn't find much literature. Assume an ion-exchanger which consists of $ce{SO3-H+}$ groups on a solid polymeric matrix, basically sulfonate styrene divinylbenzene. Assume that it is in equilibrium with 1 mM HCl solution. The solution pH is 3, but what is the surface pH? It is certainly way below zero, because sulfonic acid is a very strong acid and the surface concentration of sulfonic acid groups is pretty high yet the groups are not mobile in the solution!
Similarly, solid acid catalysts exist. Also see how solid acids are titrated [1].
References
- Chai, S.-H.; Wang, H.-P.; Liang, Y.; Xu, B.-Q. Sustainable Production of Acrolein: Investigation of Solid Acid–Base Catalysts for Gas-Phase Dehydration of Glycerol. Green Chem. 2007, 9 (10), 1130–1136. https://doi.org/10.1039/B702200J.
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think we should not mix the concept of pH, which is purely an analytical measurement, with the concept of acid and bases. It is a common misconception that pH does not exist in organic solvents. As you already know, there are several views of an acid or bases. The current IUPAC version is "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) (see Brønsted acid) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair (see Lewis acid)." This definition does not require the presence of water or any pH value.
If we take pure dry HCl gas and ammonia gas and mix them. The reaction is a classic acid base reaction. Solid fumes of ammonium chloride are formed instantly. One may then ask a question of what is the pH of a gas? However gas phase acid base chemistry does exist and it can be studied by mass spectrometry but pH does not need to be invoked.
Now instead of asking the pH of solid acids/bases, a more realistic question is what is the surface pH of a given solid? I was interested in this type of problems sometime ago but didn't find much literature. Assume an ion-exchanger which consists of $ce{SO3-H+}$ groups on a solid polymeric matrix, basically sulfonate styrene divinylbenzene. Assume that it is in equilibrium with 1 mM HCl solution. The solution pH is 3, but what is the surface pH? It is certainly way below zero, because sulfonic acid is a very strong acid and the surface concentration of sulfonic acid groups is pretty high yet the groups are not mobile in the solution!
Similarly, solid acid catalysts exist. Also see how solid acids are titrated [1].
References
- Chai, S.-H.; Wang, H.-P.; Liang, Y.; Xu, B.-Q. Sustainable Production of Acrolein: Investigation of Solid Acid–Base Catalysts for Gas-Phase Dehydration of Glycerol. Green Chem. 2007, 9 (10), 1130–1136. https://doi.org/10.1039/B702200J.
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I think we should not mix the concept of pH, which is purely an analytical measurement, with the concept of acid and bases. It is a common misconception that pH does not exist in organic solvents. As you already know, there are several views of an acid or bases. The current IUPAC version is "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) (see Brønsted acid) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair (see Lewis acid)." This definition does not require the presence of water or any pH value.
If we take pure dry HCl gas and ammonia gas and mix them. The reaction is a classic acid base reaction. Solid fumes of ammonium chloride are formed instantly. One may then ask a question of what is the pH of a gas? However gas phase acid base chemistry does exist and it can be studied by mass spectrometry but pH does not need to be invoked.
Now instead of asking the pH of solid acids/bases, a more realistic question is what is the surface pH of a given solid? I was interested in this type of problems sometime ago but didn't find much literature. Assume an ion-exchanger which consists of $ce{SO3-H+}$ groups on a solid polymeric matrix, basically sulfonate styrene divinylbenzene. Assume that it is in equilibrium with 1 mM HCl solution. The solution pH is 3, but what is the surface pH? It is certainly way below zero, because sulfonic acid is a very strong acid and the surface concentration of sulfonic acid groups is pretty high yet the groups are not mobile in the solution!
Similarly, solid acid catalysts exist. Also see how solid acids are titrated [1].
References
- Chai, S.-H.; Wang, H.-P.; Liang, Y.; Xu, B.-Q. Sustainable Production of Acrolein: Investigation of Solid Acid–Base Catalysts for Gas-Phase Dehydration of Glycerol. Green Chem. 2007, 9 (10), 1130–1136. https://doi.org/10.1039/B702200J.
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
$endgroup$
I think we should not mix the concept of pH, which is purely an analytical measurement, with the concept of acid and bases. It is a common misconception that pH does not exist in organic solvents. As you already know, there are several views of an acid or bases. The current IUPAC version is "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) (see Brønsted acid) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair (see Lewis acid)." This definition does not require the presence of water or any pH value.
If we take pure dry HCl gas and ammonia gas and mix them. The reaction is a classic acid base reaction. Solid fumes of ammonium chloride are formed instantly. One may then ask a question of what is the pH of a gas? However gas phase acid base chemistry does exist and it can be studied by mass spectrometry but pH does not need to be invoked.
Now instead of asking the pH of solid acids/bases, a more realistic question is what is the surface pH of a given solid? I was interested in this type of problems sometime ago but didn't find much literature. Assume an ion-exchanger which consists of $ce{SO3-H+}$ groups on a solid polymeric matrix, basically sulfonate styrene divinylbenzene. Assume that it is in equilibrium with 1 mM HCl solution. The solution pH is 3, but what is the surface pH? It is certainly way below zero, because sulfonic acid is a very strong acid and the surface concentration of sulfonic acid groups is pretty high yet the groups are not mobile in the solution!
Similarly, solid acid catalysts exist. Also see how solid acids are titrated [1].
References
- Chai, S.-H.; Wang, H.-P.; Liang, Y.; Xu, B.-Q. Sustainable Production of Acrolein: Investigation of Solid Acid–Base Catalysts for Gas-Phase Dehydration of Glycerol. Green Chem. 2007, 9 (10), 1130–1136. https://doi.org/10.1039/B702200J.
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
edited 1 hour ago
andselisk
20k667129
20k667129
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
answered 1 hour ago
M. FarooqM. Farooq
2,028111
2,028111
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
I love your answers and the way you include helpful insight beyond the minimum answer. Thanks!
$endgroup$
– uhoh
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your questions are thought provoking too-Deceptively simple! Just curious are you doing research on water chemistry?
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
40 mins ago
add a comment |
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