Why was the Spitfire's elliptical wing almost uncopied by other aircraft of World War 2?For the elliptical...
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Why was the Spitfire's elliptical wing almost uncopied by other aircraft of World War 2?
For the elliptical wing, what is elliptical, and why is drag regularly distributed?Why is an elliptical wing planform so aerodynamically efficient in layman's terms?Do Grumman F-14s, Panavia Tornados, and other swing-wing airplanes count as “fixed-wing aircraft?”Why are almost all STOL aircraft high-wing?Why was the A380 built with a gull-wing design?Why is the Concorde, and not other aircraft, getting this fog/condensation, over the wing, at *takeoff*?Why does the elliptical wing have the lowest drag?Was the 737-300's wing an early supercritical wing?Why do most commercial aircraft have their fuselage over the wing, instead of under?For the elliptical wing, what is elliptical, and why is drag regularly distributed?Why do the elliptical and the rectangular wing show different aerodynamic efficiency?If elliptical lift distribution is considered in every case, does the induced velocity change based on the shape of the wing?
$begingroup$
The Spitfire was one of the most successful designs of its day, with flying qualities of a similar standard to the other best designs of the era. In its decade of production from 1936 it grew bigger, stronger and faster.
Yet there seems to be almost no appetite from any of the major aircraft-manufacturing powers to emulate its most iconic feature. In fact, there is only one substantially-produced aircraft of that time with an elliptical wing, the American P-47 Thuderbolt. Nothing German or Japanese, and nothing more from the British either.
In a period where every manufacturer is trying to gain every last bit of advantage, it seems odd that a prime design feature attracted so little appetite to copy.
There are good explanations here on the aerodynamics or performance of the elliptical wing. My question is - why is it so rare when it demonstrably works so well?
source
aircraft-design wing spitfire
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Spitfire was one of the most successful designs of its day, with flying qualities of a similar standard to the other best designs of the era. In its decade of production from 1936 it grew bigger, stronger and faster.
Yet there seems to be almost no appetite from any of the major aircraft-manufacturing powers to emulate its most iconic feature. In fact, there is only one substantially-produced aircraft of that time with an elliptical wing, the American P-47 Thuderbolt. Nothing German or Japanese, and nothing more from the British either.
In a period where every manufacturer is trying to gain every last bit of advantage, it seems odd that a prime design feature attracted so little appetite to copy.
There are good explanations here on the aerodynamics or performance of the elliptical wing. My question is - why is it so rare when it demonstrably works so well?
source
aircraft-design wing spitfire
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Spitfire was one of the most successful designs of its day, with flying qualities of a similar standard to the other best designs of the era. In its decade of production from 1936 it grew bigger, stronger and faster.
Yet there seems to be almost no appetite from any of the major aircraft-manufacturing powers to emulate its most iconic feature. In fact, there is only one substantially-produced aircraft of that time with an elliptical wing, the American P-47 Thuderbolt. Nothing German or Japanese, and nothing more from the British either.
In a period where every manufacturer is trying to gain every last bit of advantage, it seems odd that a prime design feature attracted so little appetite to copy.
There are good explanations here on the aerodynamics or performance of the elliptical wing. My question is - why is it so rare when it demonstrably works so well?
source
aircraft-design wing spitfire
$endgroup$
The Spitfire was one of the most successful designs of its day, with flying qualities of a similar standard to the other best designs of the era. In its decade of production from 1936 it grew bigger, stronger and faster.
Yet there seems to be almost no appetite from any of the major aircraft-manufacturing powers to emulate its most iconic feature. In fact, there is only one substantially-produced aircraft of that time with an elliptical wing, the American P-47 Thuderbolt. Nothing German or Japanese, and nothing more from the British either.
In a period where every manufacturer is trying to gain every last bit of advantage, it seems odd that a prime design feature attracted so little appetite to copy.
There are good explanations here on the aerodynamics or performance of the elliptical wing. My question is - why is it so rare when it demonstrably works so well?
source
aircraft-design wing spitfire
aircraft-design wing spitfire
edited 3 hours ago
Party Ark
asked 9 hours ago
Party ArkParty Ark
3,33621939
3,33621939
$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago
$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Interestingly, I couldn't find an answer to this question on the website, but I've found an answer of Peter Kämpf on Quora. He brings forth the same arguments I wanted to mention, so I'll repeat them here.
Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing.
But a plane is not only aerodynamics.
You also have to consider:
- Weight, an elliptical wing is not structurally efficient, and will lead to a higher weight, which leads to higher lift requirements which will lead to more induced drag, even with a very efficient wing.
- Controllability, where and how the wing stalls determines if you're able to recover from a wing. Elliptical wings stall tip first, leading to bad stall behavior.
- Manufacturability, a fully elliptical wing is very hard to make, with its double curves. This will make the wing more expensive.
If you include these factors, you'll see that you'll end up with a compromise. If you use wing taper (which is somewhat close to the aerodynamic optimal shape) but much easier to make and much lighter you'll see that you'll end up with a better design overall.
An analysis of how the design of a wing changes if you include the structural requirements was done by Jones and can be found here.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Short answer: Elliptical wings are too expensive to manufacture. A trapezoid wing with a defined geometric or aerodynamic twist can get very close to an elliptical lift distribution (optimal lift distribution over the wingspan, therefore the primary goal of the wing design).
New contributor
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
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2 Answers
2
active
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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active
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votes
$begingroup$
Interestingly, I couldn't find an answer to this question on the website, but I've found an answer of Peter Kämpf on Quora. He brings forth the same arguments I wanted to mention, so I'll repeat them here.
Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing.
But a plane is not only aerodynamics.
You also have to consider:
- Weight, an elliptical wing is not structurally efficient, and will lead to a higher weight, which leads to higher lift requirements which will lead to more induced drag, even with a very efficient wing.
- Controllability, where and how the wing stalls determines if you're able to recover from a wing. Elliptical wings stall tip first, leading to bad stall behavior.
- Manufacturability, a fully elliptical wing is very hard to make, with its double curves. This will make the wing more expensive.
If you include these factors, you'll see that you'll end up with a compromise. If you use wing taper (which is somewhat close to the aerodynamic optimal shape) but much easier to make and much lighter you'll see that you'll end up with a better design overall.
An analysis of how the design of a wing changes if you include the structural requirements was done by Jones and can be found here.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Interestingly, I couldn't find an answer to this question on the website, but I've found an answer of Peter Kämpf on Quora. He brings forth the same arguments I wanted to mention, so I'll repeat them here.
Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing.
But a plane is not only aerodynamics.
You also have to consider:
- Weight, an elliptical wing is not structurally efficient, and will lead to a higher weight, which leads to higher lift requirements which will lead to more induced drag, even with a very efficient wing.
- Controllability, where and how the wing stalls determines if you're able to recover from a wing. Elliptical wings stall tip first, leading to bad stall behavior.
- Manufacturability, a fully elliptical wing is very hard to make, with its double curves. This will make the wing more expensive.
If you include these factors, you'll see that you'll end up with a compromise. If you use wing taper (which is somewhat close to the aerodynamic optimal shape) but much easier to make and much lighter you'll see that you'll end up with a better design overall.
An analysis of how the design of a wing changes if you include the structural requirements was done by Jones and can be found here.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Interestingly, I couldn't find an answer to this question on the website, but I've found an answer of Peter Kämpf on Quora. He brings forth the same arguments I wanted to mention, so I'll repeat them here.
Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing.
But a plane is not only aerodynamics.
You also have to consider:
- Weight, an elliptical wing is not structurally efficient, and will lead to a higher weight, which leads to higher lift requirements which will lead to more induced drag, even with a very efficient wing.
- Controllability, where and how the wing stalls determines if you're able to recover from a wing. Elliptical wings stall tip first, leading to bad stall behavior.
- Manufacturability, a fully elliptical wing is very hard to make, with its double curves. This will make the wing more expensive.
If you include these factors, you'll see that you'll end up with a compromise. If you use wing taper (which is somewhat close to the aerodynamic optimal shape) but much easier to make and much lighter you'll see that you'll end up with a better design overall.
An analysis of how the design of a wing changes if you include the structural requirements was done by Jones and can be found here.
$endgroup$
Interestingly, I couldn't find an answer to this question on the website, but I've found an answer of Peter Kämpf on Quora. He brings forth the same arguments I wanted to mention, so I'll repeat them here.
Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing.
But a plane is not only aerodynamics.
You also have to consider:
- Weight, an elliptical wing is not structurally efficient, and will lead to a higher weight, which leads to higher lift requirements which will lead to more induced drag, even with a very efficient wing.
- Controllability, where and how the wing stalls determines if you're able to recover from a wing. Elliptical wings stall tip first, leading to bad stall behavior.
- Manufacturability, a fully elliptical wing is very hard to make, with its double curves. This will make the wing more expensive.
If you include these factors, you'll see that you'll end up with a compromise. If you use wing taper (which is somewhat close to the aerodynamic optimal shape) but much easier to make and much lighter you'll see that you'll end up with a better design overall.
An analysis of how the design of a wing changes if you include the structural requirements was done by Jones and can be found here.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
ROIMaisonROIMaison
3,7622056
3,7622056
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I wonder if they ever tried the Spitfire wing with the curved shape forward and a straight back, almost like a half ellipse. May have been a little faster.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
The real killer was having to make compound stamping dies for the LE wing skins. The P-47 got a lot of the way there by making just the TE eliptical, allowing just straight bent leading edges. Overall, the Spit, like the Merlin had the typically British characteristic of very high parts count, of components being made from 5 pieces where an American aircraft would make them from one or two. Fuselage formers made from numerous little bits, etc.
$endgroup$
– John K
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Elliptical wings are very good - aerodynamically. If you want to minimize induced drag for a given lift requirement, you end up with an elliptical wing." That is incorrect.
$endgroup$
– Lysistrata
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Lysistrata, can you elaborate? This answer seems to agree with me
$endgroup$
– ROIMaison
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you go tons faster, you minimize induced drag. Few people comprehend 300 mph wind force, and they were already on their way to 400 mph. The thinking behind this type of wing simply was superseded by newer design requirements focused on the leading edge and compressability. They did get one thing right though, they made it thin, and the Spitfire line lasted until the 1950s.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
2 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Short answer: Elliptical wings are too expensive to manufacture. A trapezoid wing with a defined geometric or aerodynamic twist can get very close to an elliptical lift distribution (optimal lift distribution over the wingspan, therefore the primary goal of the wing design).
New contributor
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Short answer: Elliptical wings are too expensive to manufacture. A trapezoid wing with a defined geometric or aerodynamic twist can get very close to an elliptical lift distribution (optimal lift distribution over the wingspan, therefore the primary goal of the wing design).
New contributor
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Short answer: Elliptical wings are too expensive to manufacture. A trapezoid wing with a defined geometric or aerodynamic twist can get very close to an elliptical lift distribution (optimal lift distribution over the wingspan, therefore the primary goal of the wing design).
New contributor
$endgroup$
Short answer: Elliptical wings are too expensive to manufacture. A trapezoid wing with a defined geometric or aerodynamic twist can get very close to an elliptical lift distribution (optimal lift distribution over the wingspan, therefore the primary goal of the wing design).
New contributor
New contributor
answered 5 hours ago
Jens U. MoellerJens U. Moeller
212
212
New contributor
New contributor
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Welcome to Aviation.SE! Adding some sources by editing your answer would really improve your answer.
$endgroup$
– dalearn
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Note that even Spitfires were manufactured in "clipped wing" variants during the war which had the wingtips squared off. This was to improve the low altitude speed and roll rate, which is an important factor in air combat but not so much in other types of aviation.
$endgroup$
– llama
57 mins ago