Can a Warlock become Neutral Good?What is wrong with the D&D 3.5 FAQ?Do you lose your prestige class...

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Can a Warlock become Neutral Good?


What is wrong with the D&D 3.5 FAQ?Do you lose your prestige class features when you no longer meet its requirements?What's a good way to build an unseelie fey warlock in DnD 3.5?As a Neutral-Good character, how greedy can I be?Can a true neutral character cast spells affected by alignment?Can a Neutral cleric cast Sanctified Magic?Chaotic Neutral Alignment and GreedWarlock Eldritch master good for nothing?Can a Warlock become a lich?What would the character-optimization consequences be of using the “one-step” rule for Warlock alignment?Can a warlock cast Dark Foresight on multiple targets?Can a Helpless Warlock Activate Fell Flight to Move Underwater?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}







13












$begingroup$


In my game group there is a player who plays a warlock-druid (1-1). He started as a warlock. He realized he was playing as an NG, but he took CN for the restrictions regarding the alignment of his first class. The manual says that a warlock must be either chaotic or evil. A Neutral Good does not respect either of the two cases and we wondered what could happen, considering that the ex-warlock does not exist and the choice of alignment is not free



In the Complete Arcane there is written:




Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are
both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild,
unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even
warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons
have been known to turn the black powers at their command against
evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil. All
too familiar with the darkness lurking in his heart, he gazes
unflinchingly on the evil in others and battles the foulest of foes
without fear.




And at page 7 we can read:




Warlocks have the following game statistics.



[...]



Alignment: any evil or any chaotic




However, the manual does not refer to ex-warlocks for changed alignment
or warlocks that no longer respect the binding alignment and change it.



What happens in these cases?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
    $endgroup$
    – Someone_Evil
    15 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – HaveANiceDay
    13 hours ago


















13












$begingroup$


In my game group there is a player who plays a warlock-druid (1-1). He started as a warlock. He realized he was playing as an NG, but he took CN for the restrictions regarding the alignment of his first class. The manual says that a warlock must be either chaotic or evil. A Neutral Good does not respect either of the two cases and we wondered what could happen, considering that the ex-warlock does not exist and the choice of alignment is not free



In the Complete Arcane there is written:




Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are
both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild,
unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even
warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons
have been known to turn the black powers at their command against
evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil. All
too familiar with the darkness lurking in his heart, he gazes
unflinchingly on the evil in others and battles the foulest of foes
without fear.




And at page 7 we can read:




Warlocks have the following game statistics.



[...]



Alignment: any evil or any chaotic




However, the manual does not refer to ex-warlocks for changed alignment
or warlocks that no longer respect the binding alignment and change it.



What happens in these cases?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
    $endgroup$
    – Someone_Evil
    15 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – HaveANiceDay
    13 hours ago














13












13








13


1



$begingroup$


In my game group there is a player who plays a warlock-druid (1-1). He started as a warlock. He realized he was playing as an NG, but he took CN for the restrictions regarding the alignment of his first class. The manual says that a warlock must be either chaotic or evil. A Neutral Good does not respect either of the two cases and we wondered what could happen, considering that the ex-warlock does not exist and the choice of alignment is not free



In the Complete Arcane there is written:




Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are
both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild,
unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even
warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons
have been known to turn the black powers at their command against
evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil. All
too familiar with the darkness lurking in his heart, he gazes
unflinchingly on the evil in others and battles the foulest of foes
without fear.




And at page 7 we can read:




Warlocks have the following game statistics.



[...]



Alignment: any evil or any chaotic




However, the manual does not refer to ex-warlocks for changed alignment
or warlocks that no longer respect the binding alignment and change it.



What happens in these cases?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




In my game group there is a player who plays a warlock-druid (1-1). He started as a warlock. He realized he was playing as an NG, but he took CN for the restrictions regarding the alignment of his first class. The manual says that a warlock must be either chaotic or evil. A Neutral Good does not respect either of the two cases and we wondered what could happen, considering that the ex-warlock does not exist and the choice of alignment is not free



In the Complete Arcane there is written:




Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are
both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild,
unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even
warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons
have been known to turn the black powers at their command against
evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil. All
too familiar with the darkness lurking in his heart, he gazes
unflinchingly on the evil in others and battles the foulest of foes
without fear.




And at page 7 we can read:




Warlocks have the following game statistics.



[...]



Alignment: any evil or any chaotic




However, the manual does not refer to ex-warlocks for changed alignment
or warlocks that no longer respect the binding alignment and change it.



What happens in these cases?







dnd-3.5e warlock alignment






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 13 hours ago







HaveANiceDay

















asked 16 hours ago









HaveANiceDayHaveANiceDay

1717




1717












  • $begingroup$
    Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
    $endgroup$
    – Someone_Evil
    15 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – HaveANiceDay
    13 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
    $endgroup$
    – Someone_Evil
    15 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
    $endgroup$
    – HaveANiceDay
    13 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
15 hours ago




$begingroup$
Can you clarify what cases you are asking about?
$endgroup$
– Someone_Evil
15 hours ago












$begingroup$
I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
$endgroup$
– HaveANiceDay
13 hours ago




$begingroup$
I edit post in the first part. I hope now it's more clear. Thank you
$endgroup$
– HaveANiceDay
13 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

If a class punishes alignment change, the class's description explains that punishment



For example, the Player's Handbook on Ex-barbarians says




A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). (26)




Similar sections exist for the bard, monk, and paladin. However, there's no section in Complete Arcane for ex-warlocks, so while a beginning warlock must enter play with an alignment that's chaotic or evil or—y'know—both, the warlock need not stay that alignment and loses nothing if he changes it, whether that change occurs due to his actions and DM fiat or mechanically like through a spell like atonement. Another class with an alignment mandate but no restriction on changing it later is the Heroes of Horror standard class dread necromancer.



However, with all this in mind, this player strongly recommends talking to the DM about waiving these kinds of "soft" alignment requirements—if not all alignment requirements!—for a PC whose player wants to play against what the game thinks is normal for a particular class.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    7












    $begingroup$

    The FAQ says they can't gain further levels, but that's not stated in any rule.



    According to the D&D 3.5 FAQ, page 28:




    What happens to a warlock who changes his alignment to LG, LN, NG, or N?



    A warlock who isn't evil or chaotic can't gain any further levels as a warlock, but doesn't lose any class features or suffer any other penalty.




    However, there's literally no game rule to support this. There's no general rule which says a character cannot advance in a base class if they don't meet the alignment any more—as an earlier answer points out, many classes have their own specific "Ex-<classname>" rule for alignment shifts, but the warlock has none.



    This may be an accidental omission, but the errata does not change this. In other words, the FAQ is wrong—it's stating what the rule logically should have been, but not what it actually says in the book. In other words, rules-as-written, warlocks suffer no penalties for changing alignment.



    Even prestige classes don't need to continue to meet alignment requirements to gain levels or retain their abilities, according to DMG p.176, although Complete Arcane p.17 does introduce this restriction. Even so, that's only for prestige classes, not base classes, and wouldn't apply to the warlock.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
      $endgroup$
      – Hey I Can Chan
      3 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$

    I am not aware of any official rules in 3.5 regarding warlocks of other alignments. I believe Pathfinder does have some, so there might be some useful guidance to be found there.





    However, despite the lack of official rules, this is a great roleplaying opportunity.



    I would suggest either working in the change of alignment into the back story of the character, and now you have ready made plot hooks: jilted former friends, acquaintances, or enemies who don't believe in the change - both good and evil... not to mention how the former source of power might react to the betrayal, or followers of said being or beings.



    Or, even better yet, if it works with your campaign, role play the change of alignment out in real time, and let the character try to escape the consequences of their act.



    Even if this isn't the main part of the campaign, it would make for a great side plot or occasional plot twist.





    Points to consider:




    • warlocks draw their power from a source, usually chaotic or evil, and usually from an outsider, per the flavor text. Traditional thoughts on this concept included making a Pact with Evil, or similar. This contract, pact, or relationship will likely be betrayed during the appointment change.


    • an alternate power source is in order, one the previous one is no longer available. This could be a different type of outsider, or perhaps an Elemental Lord, or even an ancient Dragon or immortal Fey. Negotiation with that individual would make for done fun and interesting situations, especially if amusing restrictions or requirements are placed on the character.


    • consequences of the character's change in alignment will affect all their relationships: private and personal, public and social, secret contacts, religious, political, business and so forth.


    • the character history will still come back to bite them, and past actions and affiliations will often still be assumed to be true, and people will jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and accusations; or even try to follow up on the past deeds of not only the character, but also all other warlocks and anyone the warlock used to know... even things completely unrelated will be accused against the character.



    These are just a few possible angles that could add depth and spice to the character, the party, and the campaign.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      -2












      $begingroup$

      I think this is an issue of framing and preconceptions.



      I don't think there should be any penalty, except for the eventual comeuppance associated with leaving a faction. I generally think of Patron powers as more of a "Tap" into the greater power which is the patron itself. Even if you break the bond, you can still tap that powersource, and even learn to drain more power from it. This inevitably concludes with the PC consuming their patron to reach the max-level.



      That is to say, the preconception is that this power is a constant and willing gift of the patron. If you instead frame it as a one-time gift of the patron, then you can do or be whatever you want after you have it.
      An Ex-cultist, a Prisoner who was possessed by a demon, or just a dumb kid who made a deal with the devil are all valid Warlock characters who would have unholy powers but not an association with their patron.



      Whenever I have a player playing a warlock, I usually have them start with the bond between themselves and their patron broken. (Usually as the end of their backstory and the start of their adventures) I think players do naturally want to play Warlocks with chaotic evil tenancies, which is generally havoc for group cohesion. Chaotic-Evil characters also tend not to bond with the world and become hard to motivate.



      I hope this helps.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      $endgroup$














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        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

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        4 Answers
        4






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        10












        $begingroup$

        If a class punishes alignment change, the class's description explains that punishment



        For example, the Player's Handbook on Ex-barbarians says




        A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). (26)




        Similar sections exist for the bard, monk, and paladin. However, there's no section in Complete Arcane for ex-warlocks, so while a beginning warlock must enter play with an alignment that's chaotic or evil or—y'know—both, the warlock need not stay that alignment and loses nothing if he changes it, whether that change occurs due to his actions and DM fiat or mechanically like through a spell like atonement. Another class with an alignment mandate but no restriction on changing it later is the Heroes of Horror standard class dread necromancer.



        However, with all this in mind, this player strongly recommends talking to the DM about waiving these kinds of "soft" alignment requirements—if not all alignment requirements!—for a PC whose player wants to play against what the game thinks is normal for a particular class.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          10












          $begingroup$

          If a class punishes alignment change, the class's description explains that punishment



          For example, the Player's Handbook on Ex-barbarians says




          A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). (26)




          Similar sections exist for the bard, monk, and paladin. However, there's no section in Complete Arcane for ex-warlocks, so while a beginning warlock must enter play with an alignment that's chaotic or evil or—y'know—both, the warlock need not stay that alignment and loses nothing if he changes it, whether that change occurs due to his actions and DM fiat or mechanically like through a spell like atonement. Another class with an alignment mandate but no restriction on changing it later is the Heroes of Horror standard class dread necromancer.



          However, with all this in mind, this player strongly recommends talking to the DM about waiving these kinds of "soft" alignment requirements—if not all alignment requirements!—for a PC whose player wants to play against what the game thinks is normal for a particular class.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            10












            10








            10





            $begingroup$

            If a class punishes alignment change, the class's description explains that punishment



            For example, the Player's Handbook on Ex-barbarians says




            A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). (26)




            Similar sections exist for the bard, monk, and paladin. However, there's no section in Complete Arcane for ex-warlocks, so while a beginning warlock must enter play with an alignment that's chaotic or evil or—y'know—both, the warlock need not stay that alignment and loses nothing if he changes it, whether that change occurs due to his actions and DM fiat or mechanically like through a spell like atonement. Another class with an alignment mandate but no restriction on changing it later is the Heroes of Horror standard class dread necromancer.



            However, with all this in mind, this player strongly recommends talking to the DM about waiving these kinds of "soft" alignment requirements—if not all alignment requirements!—for a PC whose player wants to play against what the game thinks is normal for a particular class.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            If a class punishes alignment change, the class's description explains that punishment



            For example, the Player's Handbook on Ex-barbarians says




            A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). (26)




            Similar sections exist for the bard, monk, and paladin. However, there's no section in Complete Arcane for ex-warlocks, so while a beginning warlock must enter play with an alignment that's chaotic or evil or—y'know—both, the warlock need not stay that alignment and loses nothing if he changes it, whether that change occurs due to his actions and DM fiat or mechanically like through a spell like atonement. Another class with an alignment mandate but no restriction on changing it later is the Heroes of Horror standard class dread necromancer.



            However, with all this in mind, this player strongly recommends talking to the DM about waiving these kinds of "soft" alignment requirements—if not all alignment requirements!—for a PC whose player wants to play against what the game thinks is normal for a particular class.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 10 hours ago









            Hey I Can ChanHey I Can Chan

            147k12259627




            147k12259627

























                7












                $begingroup$

                The FAQ says they can't gain further levels, but that's not stated in any rule.



                According to the D&D 3.5 FAQ, page 28:




                What happens to a warlock who changes his alignment to LG, LN, NG, or N?



                A warlock who isn't evil or chaotic can't gain any further levels as a warlock, but doesn't lose any class features or suffer any other penalty.




                However, there's literally no game rule to support this. There's no general rule which says a character cannot advance in a base class if they don't meet the alignment any more—as an earlier answer points out, many classes have their own specific "Ex-<classname>" rule for alignment shifts, but the warlock has none.



                This may be an accidental omission, but the errata does not change this. In other words, the FAQ is wrong—it's stating what the rule logically should have been, but not what it actually says in the book. In other words, rules-as-written, warlocks suffer no penalties for changing alignment.



                Even prestige classes don't need to continue to meet alignment requirements to gain levels or retain their abilities, according to DMG p.176, although Complete Arcane p.17 does introduce this restriction. Even so, that's only for prestige classes, not base classes, and wouldn't apply to the warlock.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$













                • $begingroup$
                  The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Hey I Can Chan
                  3 hours ago
















                7












                $begingroup$

                The FAQ says they can't gain further levels, but that's not stated in any rule.



                According to the D&D 3.5 FAQ, page 28:




                What happens to a warlock who changes his alignment to LG, LN, NG, or N?



                A warlock who isn't evil or chaotic can't gain any further levels as a warlock, but doesn't lose any class features or suffer any other penalty.




                However, there's literally no game rule to support this. There's no general rule which says a character cannot advance in a base class if they don't meet the alignment any more—as an earlier answer points out, many classes have their own specific "Ex-<classname>" rule for alignment shifts, but the warlock has none.



                This may be an accidental omission, but the errata does not change this. In other words, the FAQ is wrong—it's stating what the rule logically should have been, but not what it actually says in the book. In other words, rules-as-written, warlocks suffer no penalties for changing alignment.



                Even prestige classes don't need to continue to meet alignment requirements to gain levels or retain their abilities, according to DMG p.176, although Complete Arcane p.17 does introduce this restriction. Even so, that's only for prestige classes, not base classes, and wouldn't apply to the warlock.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$













                • $begingroup$
                  The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Hey I Can Chan
                  3 hours ago














                7












                7








                7





                $begingroup$

                The FAQ says they can't gain further levels, but that's not stated in any rule.



                According to the D&D 3.5 FAQ, page 28:




                What happens to a warlock who changes his alignment to LG, LN, NG, or N?



                A warlock who isn't evil or chaotic can't gain any further levels as a warlock, but doesn't lose any class features or suffer any other penalty.




                However, there's literally no game rule to support this. There's no general rule which says a character cannot advance in a base class if they don't meet the alignment any more—as an earlier answer points out, many classes have their own specific "Ex-<classname>" rule for alignment shifts, but the warlock has none.



                This may be an accidental omission, but the errata does not change this. In other words, the FAQ is wrong—it's stating what the rule logically should have been, but not what it actually says in the book. In other words, rules-as-written, warlocks suffer no penalties for changing alignment.



                Even prestige classes don't need to continue to meet alignment requirements to gain levels or retain their abilities, according to DMG p.176, although Complete Arcane p.17 does introduce this restriction. Even so, that's only for prestige classes, not base classes, and wouldn't apply to the warlock.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                The FAQ says they can't gain further levels, but that's not stated in any rule.



                According to the D&D 3.5 FAQ, page 28:




                What happens to a warlock who changes his alignment to LG, LN, NG, or N?



                A warlock who isn't evil or chaotic can't gain any further levels as a warlock, but doesn't lose any class features or suffer any other penalty.




                However, there's literally no game rule to support this. There's no general rule which says a character cannot advance in a base class if they don't meet the alignment any more—as an earlier answer points out, many classes have their own specific "Ex-<classname>" rule for alignment shifts, but the warlock has none.



                This may be an accidental omission, but the errata does not change this. In other words, the FAQ is wrong—it's stating what the rule logically should have been, but not what it actually says in the book. In other words, rules-as-written, warlocks suffer no penalties for changing alignment.



                Even prestige classes don't need to continue to meet alignment requirements to gain levels or retain their abilities, according to DMG p.176, although Complete Arcane p.17 does introduce this restriction. Even so, that's only for prestige classes, not base classes, and wouldn't apply to the warlock.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 9 hours ago









                Quadratic WizardQuadratic Wizard

                31.5k3106170




                31.5k3106170












                • $begingroup$
                  The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Hey I Can Chan
                  3 hours ago


















                • $begingroup$
                  The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Hey I Can Chan
                  3 hours ago
















                $begingroup$
                The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                $endgroup$
                – Hey I Can Chan
                3 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                The site addresses issues that some folks have with the FAQ here and addresses what happens when a character no longer meets prestige class requirements here.
                $endgroup$
                – Hey I Can Chan
                3 hours ago











                1












                $begingroup$

                I am not aware of any official rules in 3.5 regarding warlocks of other alignments. I believe Pathfinder does have some, so there might be some useful guidance to be found there.





                However, despite the lack of official rules, this is a great roleplaying opportunity.



                I would suggest either working in the change of alignment into the back story of the character, and now you have ready made plot hooks: jilted former friends, acquaintances, or enemies who don't believe in the change - both good and evil... not to mention how the former source of power might react to the betrayal, or followers of said being or beings.



                Or, even better yet, if it works with your campaign, role play the change of alignment out in real time, and let the character try to escape the consequences of their act.



                Even if this isn't the main part of the campaign, it would make for a great side plot or occasional plot twist.





                Points to consider:




                • warlocks draw their power from a source, usually chaotic or evil, and usually from an outsider, per the flavor text. Traditional thoughts on this concept included making a Pact with Evil, or similar. This contract, pact, or relationship will likely be betrayed during the appointment change.


                • an alternate power source is in order, one the previous one is no longer available. This could be a different type of outsider, or perhaps an Elemental Lord, or even an ancient Dragon or immortal Fey. Negotiation with that individual would make for done fun and interesting situations, especially if amusing restrictions or requirements are placed on the character.


                • consequences of the character's change in alignment will affect all their relationships: private and personal, public and social, secret contacts, religious, political, business and so forth.


                • the character history will still come back to bite them, and past actions and affiliations will often still be assumed to be true, and people will jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and accusations; or even try to follow up on the past deeds of not only the character, but also all other warlocks and anyone the warlock used to know... even things completely unrelated will be accused against the character.



                These are just a few possible angles that could add depth and spice to the character, the party, and the campaign.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  I am not aware of any official rules in 3.5 regarding warlocks of other alignments. I believe Pathfinder does have some, so there might be some useful guidance to be found there.





                  However, despite the lack of official rules, this is a great roleplaying opportunity.



                  I would suggest either working in the change of alignment into the back story of the character, and now you have ready made plot hooks: jilted former friends, acquaintances, or enemies who don't believe in the change - both good and evil... not to mention how the former source of power might react to the betrayal, or followers of said being or beings.



                  Or, even better yet, if it works with your campaign, role play the change of alignment out in real time, and let the character try to escape the consequences of their act.



                  Even if this isn't the main part of the campaign, it would make for a great side plot or occasional plot twist.





                  Points to consider:




                  • warlocks draw their power from a source, usually chaotic or evil, and usually from an outsider, per the flavor text. Traditional thoughts on this concept included making a Pact with Evil, or similar. This contract, pact, or relationship will likely be betrayed during the appointment change.


                  • an alternate power source is in order, one the previous one is no longer available. This could be a different type of outsider, or perhaps an Elemental Lord, or even an ancient Dragon or immortal Fey. Negotiation with that individual would make for done fun and interesting situations, especially if amusing restrictions or requirements are placed on the character.


                  • consequences of the character's change in alignment will affect all their relationships: private and personal, public and social, secret contacts, religious, political, business and so forth.


                  • the character history will still come back to bite them, and past actions and affiliations will often still be assumed to be true, and people will jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and accusations; or even try to follow up on the past deeds of not only the character, but also all other warlocks and anyone the warlock used to know... even things completely unrelated will be accused against the character.



                  These are just a few possible angles that could add depth and spice to the character, the party, and the campaign.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$
















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$

                    I am not aware of any official rules in 3.5 regarding warlocks of other alignments. I believe Pathfinder does have some, so there might be some useful guidance to be found there.





                    However, despite the lack of official rules, this is a great roleplaying opportunity.



                    I would suggest either working in the change of alignment into the back story of the character, and now you have ready made plot hooks: jilted former friends, acquaintances, or enemies who don't believe in the change - both good and evil... not to mention how the former source of power might react to the betrayal, or followers of said being or beings.



                    Or, even better yet, if it works with your campaign, role play the change of alignment out in real time, and let the character try to escape the consequences of their act.



                    Even if this isn't the main part of the campaign, it would make for a great side plot or occasional plot twist.





                    Points to consider:




                    • warlocks draw their power from a source, usually chaotic or evil, and usually from an outsider, per the flavor text. Traditional thoughts on this concept included making a Pact with Evil, or similar. This contract, pact, or relationship will likely be betrayed during the appointment change.


                    • an alternate power source is in order, one the previous one is no longer available. This could be a different type of outsider, or perhaps an Elemental Lord, or even an ancient Dragon or immortal Fey. Negotiation with that individual would make for done fun and interesting situations, especially if amusing restrictions or requirements are placed on the character.


                    • consequences of the character's change in alignment will affect all their relationships: private and personal, public and social, secret contacts, religious, political, business and so forth.


                    • the character history will still come back to bite them, and past actions and affiliations will often still be assumed to be true, and people will jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and accusations; or even try to follow up on the past deeds of not only the character, but also all other warlocks and anyone the warlock used to know... even things completely unrelated will be accused against the character.



                    These are just a few possible angles that could add depth and spice to the character, the party, and the campaign.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    I am not aware of any official rules in 3.5 regarding warlocks of other alignments. I believe Pathfinder does have some, so there might be some useful guidance to be found there.





                    However, despite the lack of official rules, this is a great roleplaying opportunity.



                    I would suggest either working in the change of alignment into the back story of the character, and now you have ready made plot hooks: jilted former friends, acquaintances, or enemies who don't believe in the change - both good and evil... not to mention how the former source of power might react to the betrayal, or followers of said being or beings.



                    Or, even better yet, if it works with your campaign, role play the change of alignment out in real time, and let the character try to escape the consequences of their act.



                    Even if this isn't the main part of the campaign, it would make for a great side plot or occasional plot twist.





                    Points to consider:




                    • warlocks draw their power from a source, usually chaotic or evil, and usually from an outsider, per the flavor text. Traditional thoughts on this concept included making a Pact with Evil, or similar. This contract, pact, or relationship will likely be betrayed during the appointment change.


                    • an alternate power source is in order, one the previous one is no longer available. This could be a different type of outsider, or perhaps an Elemental Lord, or even an ancient Dragon or immortal Fey. Negotiation with that individual would make for done fun and interesting situations, especially if amusing restrictions or requirements are placed on the character.


                    • consequences of the character's change in alignment will affect all their relationships: private and personal, public and social, secret contacts, religious, political, business and so forth.


                    • the character history will still come back to bite them, and past actions and affiliations will often still be assumed to be true, and people will jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and accusations; or even try to follow up on the past deeds of not only the character, but also all other warlocks and anyone the warlock used to know... even things completely unrelated will be accused against the character.



                    These are just a few possible angles that could add depth and spice to the character, the party, and the campaign.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 10 hours ago

























                    answered 11 hours ago









                    nijinekonijineko

                    5,8771035




                    5,8771035























                        -2












                        $begingroup$

                        I think this is an issue of framing and preconceptions.



                        I don't think there should be any penalty, except for the eventual comeuppance associated with leaving a faction. I generally think of Patron powers as more of a "Tap" into the greater power which is the patron itself. Even if you break the bond, you can still tap that powersource, and even learn to drain more power from it. This inevitably concludes with the PC consuming their patron to reach the max-level.



                        That is to say, the preconception is that this power is a constant and willing gift of the patron. If you instead frame it as a one-time gift of the patron, then you can do or be whatever you want after you have it.
                        An Ex-cultist, a Prisoner who was possessed by a demon, or just a dumb kid who made a deal with the devil are all valid Warlock characters who would have unholy powers but not an association with their patron.



                        Whenever I have a player playing a warlock, I usually have them start with the bond between themselves and their patron broken. (Usually as the end of their backstory and the start of their adventures) I think players do naturally want to play Warlocks with chaotic evil tenancies, which is generally havoc for group cohesion. Chaotic-Evil characters also tend not to bond with the world and become hard to motivate.



                        I hope this helps.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                        $endgroup$


















                          -2












                          $begingroup$

                          I think this is an issue of framing and preconceptions.



                          I don't think there should be any penalty, except for the eventual comeuppance associated with leaving a faction. I generally think of Patron powers as more of a "Tap" into the greater power which is the patron itself. Even if you break the bond, you can still tap that powersource, and even learn to drain more power from it. This inevitably concludes with the PC consuming their patron to reach the max-level.



                          That is to say, the preconception is that this power is a constant and willing gift of the patron. If you instead frame it as a one-time gift of the patron, then you can do or be whatever you want after you have it.
                          An Ex-cultist, a Prisoner who was possessed by a demon, or just a dumb kid who made a deal with the devil are all valid Warlock characters who would have unholy powers but not an association with their patron.



                          Whenever I have a player playing a warlock, I usually have them start with the bond between themselves and their patron broken. (Usually as the end of their backstory and the start of their adventures) I think players do naturally want to play Warlocks with chaotic evil tenancies, which is generally havoc for group cohesion. Chaotic-Evil characters also tend not to bond with the world and become hard to motivate.



                          I hope this helps.






                          share|improve this answer








                          New contributor




                          JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






                          $endgroup$
















                            -2












                            -2








                            -2





                            $begingroup$

                            I think this is an issue of framing and preconceptions.



                            I don't think there should be any penalty, except for the eventual comeuppance associated with leaving a faction. I generally think of Patron powers as more of a "Tap" into the greater power which is the patron itself. Even if you break the bond, you can still tap that powersource, and even learn to drain more power from it. This inevitably concludes with the PC consuming their patron to reach the max-level.



                            That is to say, the preconception is that this power is a constant and willing gift of the patron. If you instead frame it as a one-time gift of the patron, then you can do or be whatever you want after you have it.
                            An Ex-cultist, a Prisoner who was possessed by a demon, or just a dumb kid who made a deal with the devil are all valid Warlock characters who would have unholy powers but not an association with their patron.



                            Whenever I have a player playing a warlock, I usually have them start with the bond between themselves and their patron broken. (Usually as the end of their backstory and the start of their adventures) I think players do naturally want to play Warlocks with chaotic evil tenancies, which is generally havoc for group cohesion. Chaotic-Evil characters also tend not to bond with the world and become hard to motivate.



                            I hope this helps.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            $endgroup$



                            I think this is an issue of framing and preconceptions.



                            I don't think there should be any penalty, except for the eventual comeuppance associated with leaving a faction. I generally think of Patron powers as more of a "Tap" into the greater power which is the patron itself. Even if you break the bond, you can still tap that powersource, and even learn to drain more power from it. This inevitably concludes with the PC consuming their patron to reach the max-level.



                            That is to say, the preconception is that this power is a constant and willing gift of the patron. If you instead frame it as a one-time gift of the patron, then you can do or be whatever you want after you have it.
                            An Ex-cultist, a Prisoner who was possessed by a demon, or just a dumb kid who made a deal with the devil are all valid Warlock characters who would have unholy powers but not an association with their patron.



                            Whenever I have a player playing a warlock, I usually have them start with the bond between themselves and their patron broken. (Usually as the end of their backstory and the start of their adventures) I think players do naturally want to play Warlocks with chaotic evil tenancies, which is generally havoc for group cohesion. Chaotic-Evil characters also tend not to bond with the world and become hard to motivate.



                            I hope this helps.







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer






                            New contributor




                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                            answered 10 hours ago









                            JohnOutWestJohnOutWest

                            451




                            451




                            New contributor




                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                            New contributor





                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                            JohnOutWest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






























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