If I can make up priors, why can't I make up posteriors? Announcing the arrival of Valued...

Keep going mode for require-package

Windows 10: How to Lock (not sleep) laptop on lid close?

Working around an AWS network ACL rule limit

Two different pronunciation of "понял"

Stop battery usage [Ubuntu 18]

Am I ethically obligated to go into work on an off day if the reason is sudden?

What was the last x86 CPU that did not have the x87 floating-point unit built in?

How is simplicity better than precision and clarity in prose?

Passing functions in C++

How to add zeros to reach same number of decimal places in tables?

Problem when applying foreach loop

The following signatures were invalid: EXPKEYSIG 1397BC53640DB551

Need a suitable toxic chemical for a murder plot in my novel

Failing to enforce immigration laws?

Why does this iterative way of solving of equation work?

What kind of display is this?

How does modal jazz use chord progressions?

Why is there no army of Iron-Mans in the MCU?

What did Darwin mean by 'squib' here?

Why don't the Weasley twins use magic outside of school if the Trace can only find the location of spells cast?

How do I automatically answer y in bash script?

What is the largest species of polychaete?

What to do with post with dry rot?

Using "nakedly" instead of "with nothing on"



If I can make up priors, why can't I make up posteriors?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Maximum Likelihood Estimation (MLE) in layman termsWhat is an “uninformative prior”? Can we ever have one with truly no information?Do Bayesian priors become irrelevant with large sample size?Bayesian vs frequentist Interpretations of ProbabilityWhen are Bayesian methods preferable to Frequentist?How is data generated in the Bayesian framework and what is the nature on the parameter that generates the data?Can anyone explain conjugate priors in simplest possible terms?Why is computing the Bayesian Evidence difficult?When do MAP inference and full Bayesian Inference give the same solution and why?Why can't the complete class theorem be easily generalized to all locally-compact spaces?Why is Bayesian data analysis done if we already know the distribution of the parameters?Why are weakly informative priors a good idea?Some Questions about reference measures and maximum entropy priors (from The Bayesian Choice)





.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}







2












$begingroup$


My question is not meant to be a criticism of Bayesian methods; I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view. Why is it reasonable to believe we know the distribution of our parameters, but not our parameters given data?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceET
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
    $endgroup$
    – jbowman
    59 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    57 mins ago


















2












$begingroup$


My question is not meant to be a criticism of Bayesian methods; I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view. Why is it reasonable to believe we know the distribution of our parameters, but not our parameters given data?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceET
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
    $endgroup$
    – jbowman
    59 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    57 mins ago














2












2








2


1



$begingroup$


My question is not meant to be a criticism of Bayesian methods; I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view. Why is it reasonable to believe we know the distribution of our parameters, but not our parameters given data?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




My question is not meant to be a criticism of Bayesian methods; I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view. Why is it reasonable to believe we know the distribution of our parameters, but not our parameters given data?







bayesian mathematical-statistics






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 3 hours ago









purpleostrichpurpleostrich

1748




1748












  • $begingroup$
    Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceET
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
    $endgroup$
    – jbowman
    59 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    57 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceET
    3 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    "I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    1 hour ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
    $endgroup$
    – jbowman
    59 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
    $endgroup$
    – Alexis
    57 mins ago
















$begingroup$
Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
$endgroup$
– BruceET
3 hours ago






$begingroup$
Priors are determined 'prior' to seeing data, presumably according to a reasonable assessment of the situation.{'Made up' has an unfortunate feel of caprice--or snark-- and doesn't seem justified.) The prior dist'n and information from the sample (presumably not a matter of opinion) are combined to get the posterior. If you believe your prior distribution is reasonable and that the data were collected honestly, then you logically should believe the posterior. // The choice of prior indirectly affects the posterior but you are not allowed to 'make up' the posterior.
$endgroup$
– BruceET
3 hours ago






1




1




$begingroup$
"I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
$endgroup$
– Alexis
1 hour ago






$begingroup$
"I am simply trying to understand the Bayesian view." Take (a) what you already believe about the world (prior), and (b) new experiences (data), and mush them together, to make a new belief about the world (posterior). Wash, rinse, repeat.
$endgroup$
– Alexis
1 hour ago






1




1




$begingroup$
@Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
$endgroup$
– jbowman
59 mins ago




$begingroup$
@Alexis - "mush them together in the optimal way", where the latter four words mark the difference between Bayesian updating and other updating. BTW, I'm going to steal your comment (+1) for future non-CV use!
$endgroup$
– jbowman
59 mins ago












$begingroup$
Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
$endgroup$
– Alexis
57 mins ago




$begingroup$
Be my guest, @jbowman ! "Mush them together" was of course far too much of a poetic license to be a term of art. :)
$endgroup$
– Alexis
57 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

If you have a belief about the distribution of your data after seeing data, then why would you be estimating its parameters with data? You already have the parameters.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    2












    $begingroup$

    Well, in Bayesian statistics, you don't just "make up" your priors. You should be building a prior that best captures your knowledge before seeing the data. Otherwise, why anyone should care about the output of your Bayesian analysis is very hard to justify.



    So while it's true that the practitioner has some sense of freedom in creating a prior, it should be tied to something meaningful in order for an analysis to be useful. With that said, the prior isn't the only part of a Bayesian analysis that allows this freedom. A practitioner is offered the same freedom in constructing the likelihood function, which defines the relation between the data and the model. Just as using nonsense priors will lead to a nonsense posterior, using a nonsense likelihood will also lead to a nonsense posterior. So in practice, ideally one should chose a likelihood function such that it is flexible enough to handle one's uncertainty, yet constrained enough to make inference with limited data possible.



    To demonstrate, consider two somewhat extreme examples. Suppose we are interested in determining the effect of a continuous-valued treatment on patients. In order to learn anything from the data, we must choice a model with that flexibility. If we were to simply leave out "treatment" for our set of regression parameters, no matter what our outcome was, we could report "given the data, our model estimates no effect of treatment". On the other extreme, suppose we have a model so flexible that we don't constrain the treatment effect to have a finite number of discontinuities. Then, (without strong priors, at least), we have almost no hope of having any sort of convergence of our estimated treatment effect no matter our sample size. Thus, our inference can be completely butchered by poor choices of likelihood functions, just as it could be by poor choices of priors.



    Of course, in reality we wouldn't chose either of these extremes, but we still do make these types of choices. How flexible a treatment effect are we going to allow: linear, splines, interaction with other variables? There's always the tradeoff between "sufficiently flexible" and "estimatable given our sample size". If we're smart, our likelihood functions should include reasonable constraints (i.e., treatment continuous treatment effect probably relatively smooth, probably doesn't include very high order interaction effects). This is essentially the same art as picking a prior: you want to constrain your inference with prior knowledge, and allow flexibility where there is uncertainty. The whole point of using data is to help constrain some of that the flexibility that stems from our uncertainty.



    In summary, a practitioner has freedom in selection of both the prior and the likelihood function. In order for an analysis to be in anyway meaningful, both choices should be a relatively good approximation of real phenomena.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      In case of many problems in statistics you have some data, let's denote it as $X$, and want to learn about some "parameter" $theta$ of the distribution of the data, i.e. calculate the $theta|X$ kind of things (conditional distribution, conditional expectation etc.). There are several ways how can this be achieved, including maximum likelihood, and without getting into discussion if and which of them is better, you can consider using Bayes theorem as one of them. One of the advantages of using Bayes theorem, is that it let's you directly given that you know conditional distribution of the data given the parameter (likelihood) and the distribution of the parameter (prior), then you simply calculate



      $$
      overbrace{p(theta|X)}^text{posterior} = frac{overbrace{p(X|theta)}^text{likelihood};overbrace{p(theta)}^text{prior}}{p(X)}
      $$



      Likelihood is the conditional distribution of your data, so it is a matter of understanding your data and choosing some distribution that approximates it best, and it is rather uncontroversial concept. As about prior, notice that for the above formula to work you need some prior. In perfect world, you would know a priori the distribution of $theta$ and applied it to get the posterior. In real world, this is something that you assume, given your best knowledge, and plug-in to Bayes theorem. You could choose an "uninformative" prior $p(theta) propto 1$, but there are many arguments that such priors are neither "uninformative", nor reasonable. What I'm trying to say, is that there are many ways how you could come up with some distribution for a prior. Some consider priors as a blessing, since they make it possible to bring your out-of-data knowledge into the model, while others, for exactly the same reason, consider them as problematic.



      Answering your question, sure you can assume that the distribution of the parameter given data is something. On day-to-day basis all the time we make our decisions based on some assumptions, that not always are rigorously validated. However the difference between prior and posterior is that the posterior is something that you learned from the data (and the prior). If it isn't, but your wild guess, then it's not a posterior any more. As about why we allow ourselves to "make up" priors, there are two answers depending on who you ask: either it is that (a) for the machinery to work we need some prior, or (b) we know something in advance that want to include it in our model, and thanks to priors this is possible. In either case, we usually expect the data to have "final word" rather then the priors.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$














        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "65"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });














        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fstats.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f403013%2fif-i-can-make-up-priors-why-cant-i-make-up-posteriors%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        3












        $begingroup$

        If you have a belief about the distribution of your data after seeing data, then why would you be estimating its parameters with data? You already have the parameters.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          3












          $begingroup$

          If you have a belief about the distribution of your data after seeing data, then why would you be estimating its parameters with data? You already have the parameters.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            If you have a belief about the distribution of your data after seeing data, then why would you be estimating its parameters with data? You already have the parameters.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            If you have a belief about the distribution of your data after seeing data, then why would you be estimating its parameters with data? You already have the parameters.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered 1 hour ago









            AksakalAksakal

            39.2k452120




            39.2k452120

























                2












                $begingroup$

                Well, in Bayesian statistics, you don't just "make up" your priors. You should be building a prior that best captures your knowledge before seeing the data. Otherwise, why anyone should care about the output of your Bayesian analysis is very hard to justify.



                So while it's true that the practitioner has some sense of freedom in creating a prior, it should be tied to something meaningful in order for an analysis to be useful. With that said, the prior isn't the only part of a Bayesian analysis that allows this freedom. A practitioner is offered the same freedom in constructing the likelihood function, which defines the relation between the data and the model. Just as using nonsense priors will lead to a nonsense posterior, using a nonsense likelihood will also lead to a nonsense posterior. So in practice, ideally one should chose a likelihood function such that it is flexible enough to handle one's uncertainty, yet constrained enough to make inference with limited data possible.



                To demonstrate, consider two somewhat extreme examples. Suppose we are interested in determining the effect of a continuous-valued treatment on patients. In order to learn anything from the data, we must choice a model with that flexibility. If we were to simply leave out "treatment" for our set of regression parameters, no matter what our outcome was, we could report "given the data, our model estimates no effect of treatment". On the other extreme, suppose we have a model so flexible that we don't constrain the treatment effect to have a finite number of discontinuities. Then, (without strong priors, at least), we have almost no hope of having any sort of convergence of our estimated treatment effect no matter our sample size. Thus, our inference can be completely butchered by poor choices of likelihood functions, just as it could be by poor choices of priors.



                Of course, in reality we wouldn't chose either of these extremes, but we still do make these types of choices. How flexible a treatment effect are we going to allow: linear, splines, interaction with other variables? There's always the tradeoff between "sufficiently flexible" and "estimatable given our sample size". If we're smart, our likelihood functions should include reasonable constraints (i.e., treatment continuous treatment effect probably relatively smooth, probably doesn't include very high order interaction effects). This is essentially the same art as picking a prior: you want to constrain your inference with prior knowledge, and allow flexibility where there is uncertainty. The whole point of using data is to help constrain some of that the flexibility that stems from our uncertainty.



                In summary, a practitioner has freedom in selection of both the prior and the likelihood function. In order for an analysis to be in anyway meaningful, both choices should be a relatively good approximation of real phenomena.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$


















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  Well, in Bayesian statistics, you don't just "make up" your priors. You should be building a prior that best captures your knowledge before seeing the data. Otherwise, why anyone should care about the output of your Bayesian analysis is very hard to justify.



                  So while it's true that the practitioner has some sense of freedom in creating a prior, it should be tied to something meaningful in order for an analysis to be useful. With that said, the prior isn't the only part of a Bayesian analysis that allows this freedom. A practitioner is offered the same freedom in constructing the likelihood function, which defines the relation between the data and the model. Just as using nonsense priors will lead to a nonsense posterior, using a nonsense likelihood will also lead to a nonsense posterior. So in practice, ideally one should chose a likelihood function such that it is flexible enough to handle one's uncertainty, yet constrained enough to make inference with limited data possible.



                  To demonstrate, consider two somewhat extreme examples. Suppose we are interested in determining the effect of a continuous-valued treatment on patients. In order to learn anything from the data, we must choice a model with that flexibility. If we were to simply leave out "treatment" for our set of regression parameters, no matter what our outcome was, we could report "given the data, our model estimates no effect of treatment". On the other extreme, suppose we have a model so flexible that we don't constrain the treatment effect to have a finite number of discontinuities. Then, (without strong priors, at least), we have almost no hope of having any sort of convergence of our estimated treatment effect no matter our sample size. Thus, our inference can be completely butchered by poor choices of likelihood functions, just as it could be by poor choices of priors.



                  Of course, in reality we wouldn't chose either of these extremes, but we still do make these types of choices. How flexible a treatment effect are we going to allow: linear, splines, interaction with other variables? There's always the tradeoff between "sufficiently flexible" and "estimatable given our sample size". If we're smart, our likelihood functions should include reasonable constraints (i.e., treatment continuous treatment effect probably relatively smooth, probably doesn't include very high order interaction effects). This is essentially the same art as picking a prior: you want to constrain your inference with prior knowledge, and allow flexibility where there is uncertainty. The whole point of using data is to help constrain some of that the flexibility that stems from our uncertainty.



                  In summary, a practitioner has freedom in selection of both the prior and the likelihood function. In order for an analysis to be in anyway meaningful, both choices should be a relatively good approximation of real phenomena.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$
















                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    Well, in Bayesian statistics, you don't just "make up" your priors. You should be building a prior that best captures your knowledge before seeing the data. Otherwise, why anyone should care about the output of your Bayesian analysis is very hard to justify.



                    So while it's true that the practitioner has some sense of freedom in creating a prior, it should be tied to something meaningful in order for an analysis to be useful. With that said, the prior isn't the only part of a Bayesian analysis that allows this freedom. A practitioner is offered the same freedom in constructing the likelihood function, which defines the relation between the data and the model. Just as using nonsense priors will lead to a nonsense posterior, using a nonsense likelihood will also lead to a nonsense posterior. So in practice, ideally one should chose a likelihood function such that it is flexible enough to handle one's uncertainty, yet constrained enough to make inference with limited data possible.



                    To demonstrate, consider two somewhat extreme examples. Suppose we are interested in determining the effect of a continuous-valued treatment on patients. In order to learn anything from the data, we must choice a model with that flexibility. If we were to simply leave out "treatment" for our set of regression parameters, no matter what our outcome was, we could report "given the data, our model estimates no effect of treatment". On the other extreme, suppose we have a model so flexible that we don't constrain the treatment effect to have a finite number of discontinuities. Then, (without strong priors, at least), we have almost no hope of having any sort of convergence of our estimated treatment effect no matter our sample size. Thus, our inference can be completely butchered by poor choices of likelihood functions, just as it could be by poor choices of priors.



                    Of course, in reality we wouldn't chose either of these extremes, but we still do make these types of choices. How flexible a treatment effect are we going to allow: linear, splines, interaction with other variables? There's always the tradeoff between "sufficiently flexible" and "estimatable given our sample size". If we're smart, our likelihood functions should include reasonable constraints (i.e., treatment continuous treatment effect probably relatively smooth, probably doesn't include very high order interaction effects). This is essentially the same art as picking a prior: you want to constrain your inference with prior knowledge, and allow flexibility where there is uncertainty. The whole point of using data is to help constrain some of that the flexibility that stems from our uncertainty.



                    In summary, a practitioner has freedom in selection of both the prior and the likelihood function. In order for an analysis to be in anyway meaningful, both choices should be a relatively good approximation of real phenomena.






                    share|cite|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    Well, in Bayesian statistics, you don't just "make up" your priors. You should be building a prior that best captures your knowledge before seeing the data. Otherwise, why anyone should care about the output of your Bayesian analysis is very hard to justify.



                    So while it's true that the practitioner has some sense of freedom in creating a prior, it should be tied to something meaningful in order for an analysis to be useful. With that said, the prior isn't the only part of a Bayesian analysis that allows this freedom. A practitioner is offered the same freedom in constructing the likelihood function, which defines the relation between the data and the model. Just as using nonsense priors will lead to a nonsense posterior, using a nonsense likelihood will also lead to a nonsense posterior. So in practice, ideally one should chose a likelihood function such that it is flexible enough to handle one's uncertainty, yet constrained enough to make inference with limited data possible.



                    To demonstrate, consider two somewhat extreme examples. Suppose we are interested in determining the effect of a continuous-valued treatment on patients. In order to learn anything from the data, we must choice a model with that flexibility. If we were to simply leave out "treatment" for our set of regression parameters, no matter what our outcome was, we could report "given the data, our model estimates no effect of treatment". On the other extreme, suppose we have a model so flexible that we don't constrain the treatment effect to have a finite number of discontinuities. Then, (without strong priors, at least), we have almost no hope of having any sort of convergence of our estimated treatment effect no matter our sample size. Thus, our inference can be completely butchered by poor choices of likelihood functions, just as it could be by poor choices of priors.



                    Of course, in reality we wouldn't chose either of these extremes, but we still do make these types of choices. How flexible a treatment effect are we going to allow: linear, splines, interaction with other variables? There's always the tradeoff between "sufficiently flexible" and "estimatable given our sample size". If we're smart, our likelihood functions should include reasonable constraints (i.e., treatment continuous treatment effect probably relatively smooth, probably doesn't include very high order interaction effects). This is essentially the same art as picking a prior: you want to constrain your inference with prior knowledge, and allow flexibility where there is uncertainty. The whole point of using data is to help constrain some of that the flexibility that stems from our uncertainty.



                    In summary, a practitioner has freedom in selection of both the prior and the likelihood function. In order for an analysis to be in anyway meaningful, both choices should be a relatively good approximation of real phenomena.







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited 29 mins ago

























                    answered 2 hours ago









                    Cliff ABCliff AB

                    13.8k12567




                    13.8k12567























                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        In case of many problems in statistics you have some data, let's denote it as $X$, and want to learn about some "parameter" $theta$ of the distribution of the data, i.e. calculate the $theta|X$ kind of things (conditional distribution, conditional expectation etc.). There are several ways how can this be achieved, including maximum likelihood, and without getting into discussion if and which of them is better, you can consider using Bayes theorem as one of them. One of the advantages of using Bayes theorem, is that it let's you directly given that you know conditional distribution of the data given the parameter (likelihood) and the distribution of the parameter (prior), then you simply calculate



                        $$
                        overbrace{p(theta|X)}^text{posterior} = frac{overbrace{p(X|theta)}^text{likelihood};overbrace{p(theta)}^text{prior}}{p(X)}
                        $$



                        Likelihood is the conditional distribution of your data, so it is a matter of understanding your data and choosing some distribution that approximates it best, and it is rather uncontroversial concept. As about prior, notice that for the above formula to work you need some prior. In perfect world, you would know a priori the distribution of $theta$ and applied it to get the posterior. In real world, this is something that you assume, given your best knowledge, and plug-in to Bayes theorem. You could choose an "uninformative" prior $p(theta) propto 1$, but there are many arguments that such priors are neither "uninformative", nor reasonable. What I'm trying to say, is that there are many ways how you could come up with some distribution for a prior. Some consider priors as a blessing, since they make it possible to bring your out-of-data knowledge into the model, while others, for exactly the same reason, consider them as problematic.



                        Answering your question, sure you can assume that the distribution of the parameter given data is something. On day-to-day basis all the time we make our decisions based on some assumptions, that not always are rigorously validated. However the difference between prior and posterior is that the posterior is something that you learned from the data (and the prior). If it isn't, but your wild guess, then it's not a posterior any more. As about why we allow ourselves to "make up" priors, there are two answers depending on who you ask: either it is that (a) for the machinery to work we need some prior, or (b) we know something in advance that want to include it in our model, and thanks to priors this is possible. In either case, we usually expect the data to have "final word" rather then the priors.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          In case of many problems in statistics you have some data, let's denote it as $X$, and want to learn about some "parameter" $theta$ of the distribution of the data, i.e. calculate the $theta|X$ kind of things (conditional distribution, conditional expectation etc.). There are several ways how can this be achieved, including maximum likelihood, and without getting into discussion if and which of them is better, you can consider using Bayes theorem as one of them. One of the advantages of using Bayes theorem, is that it let's you directly given that you know conditional distribution of the data given the parameter (likelihood) and the distribution of the parameter (prior), then you simply calculate



                          $$
                          overbrace{p(theta|X)}^text{posterior} = frac{overbrace{p(X|theta)}^text{likelihood};overbrace{p(theta)}^text{prior}}{p(X)}
                          $$



                          Likelihood is the conditional distribution of your data, so it is a matter of understanding your data and choosing some distribution that approximates it best, and it is rather uncontroversial concept. As about prior, notice that for the above formula to work you need some prior. In perfect world, you would know a priori the distribution of $theta$ and applied it to get the posterior. In real world, this is something that you assume, given your best knowledge, and plug-in to Bayes theorem. You could choose an "uninformative" prior $p(theta) propto 1$, but there are many arguments that such priors are neither "uninformative", nor reasonable. What I'm trying to say, is that there are many ways how you could come up with some distribution for a prior. Some consider priors as a blessing, since they make it possible to bring your out-of-data knowledge into the model, while others, for exactly the same reason, consider them as problematic.



                          Answering your question, sure you can assume that the distribution of the parameter given data is something. On day-to-day basis all the time we make our decisions based on some assumptions, that not always are rigorously validated. However the difference between prior and posterior is that the posterior is something that you learned from the data (and the prior). If it isn't, but your wild guess, then it's not a posterior any more. As about why we allow ourselves to "make up" priors, there are two answers depending on who you ask: either it is that (a) for the machinery to work we need some prior, or (b) we know something in advance that want to include it in our model, and thanks to priors this is possible. In either case, we usually expect the data to have "final word" rather then the priors.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            In case of many problems in statistics you have some data, let's denote it as $X$, and want to learn about some "parameter" $theta$ of the distribution of the data, i.e. calculate the $theta|X$ kind of things (conditional distribution, conditional expectation etc.). There are several ways how can this be achieved, including maximum likelihood, and without getting into discussion if and which of them is better, you can consider using Bayes theorem as one of them. One of the advantages of using Bayes theorem, is that it let's you directly given that you know conditional distribution of the data given the parameter (likelihood) and the distribution of the parameter (prior), then you simply calculate



                            $$
                            overbrace{p(theta|X)}^text{posterior} = frac{overbrace{p(X|theta)}^text{likelihood};overbrace{p(theta)}^text{prior}}{p(X)}
                            $$



                            Likelihood is the conditional distribution of your data, so it is a matter of understanding your data and choosing some distribution that approximates it best, and it is rather uncontroversial concept. As about prior, notice that for the above formula to work you need some prior. In perfect world, you would know a priori the distribution of $theta$ and applied it to get the posterior. In real world, this is something that you assume, given your best knowledge, and plug-in to Bayes theorem. You could choose an "uninformative" prior $p(theta) propto 1$, but there are many arguments that such priors are neither "uninformative", nor reasonable. What I'm trying to say, is that there are many ways how you could come up with some distribution for a prior. Some consider priors as a blessing, since they make it possible to bring your out-of-data knowledge into the model, while others, for exactly the same reason, consider them as problematic.



                            Answering your question, sure you can assume that the distribution of the parameter given data is something. On day-to-day basis all the time we make our decisions based on some assumptions, that not always are rigorously validated. However the difference between prior and posterior is that the posterior is something that you learned from the data (and the prior). If it isn't, but your wild guess, then it's not a posterior any more. As about why we allow ourselves to "make up" priors, there are two answers depending on who you ask: either it is that (a) for the machinery to work we need some prior, or (b) we know something in advance that want to include it in our model, and thanks to priors this is possible. In either case, we usually expect the data to have "final word" rather then the priors.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            In case of many problems in statistics you have some data, let's denote it as $X$, and want to learn about some "parameter" $theta$ of the distribution of the data, i.e. calculate the $theta|X$ kind of things (conditional distribution, conditional expectation etc.). There are several ways how can this be achieved, including maximum likelihood, and without getting into discussion if and which of them is better, you can consider using Bayes theorem as one of them. One of the advantages of using Bayes theorem, is that it let's you directly given that you know conditional distribution of the data given the parameter (likelihood) and the distribution of the parameter (prior), then you simply calculate



                            $$
                            overbrace{p(theta|X)}^text{posterior} = frac{overbrace{p(X|theta)}^text{likelihood};overbrace{p(theta)}^text{prior}}{p(X)}
                            $$



                            Likelihood is the conditional distribution of your data, so it is a matter of understanding your data and choosing some distribution that approximates it best, and it is rather uncontroversial concept. As about prior, notice that for the above formula to work you need some prior. In perfect world, you would know a priori the distribution of $theta$ and applied it to get the posterior. In real world, this is something that you assume, given your best knowledge, and plug-in to Bayes theorem. You could choose an "uninformative" prior $p(theta) propto 1$, but there are many arguments that such priors are neither "uninformative", nor reasonable. What I'm trying to say, is that there are many ways how you could come up with some distribution for a prior. Some consider priors as a blessing, since they make it possible to bring your out-of-data knowledge into the model, while others, for exactly the same reason, consider them as problematic.



                            Answering your question, sure you can assume that the distribution of the parameter given data is something. On day-to-day basis all the time we make our decisions based on some assumptions, that not always are rigorously validated. However the difference between prior and posterior is that the posterior is something that you learned from the data (and the prior). If it isn't, but your wild guess, then it's not a posterior any more. As about why we allow ourselves to "make up" priors, there are two answers depending on who you ask: either it is that (a) for the machinery to work we need some prior, or (b) we know something in advance that want to include it in our model, and thanks to priors this is possible. In either case, we usually expect the data to have "final word" rather then the priors.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered 1 hour ago









                            TimTim

                            60.1k9133229




                            60.1k9133229






























                                draft saved

                                draft discarded




















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Cross Validated!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fstats.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f403013%2fif-i-can-make-up-priors-why-cant-i-make-up-posteriors%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                Installing LyX: “No textclass is found.”LyX installation error- text class not found- 'Reconfigure' or...

                                (1602) Indiana Índice Designación y nombre Características orbitales Véase...

                                Universidad Autónoma de Occidente Índice Historia Campus Facultades Programas Académicos Medios de...