Using only 1s, make 29 with the minimum number of digits$tau$ is greatest! $tau$ is all (from 1 to 20)Create...
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Using only 1s, make 29 with the minimum number of digits
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Using only 1s, make 29 with the minimum number of digits
$tau$ is greatest! $tau$ is all (from 1 to 20)Create integers from 1 to 50 using only one integer and other functionsMaking π from 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9Using the digits 2, 3, 4 make an expression for 30Express the number $2015$ using only the digit $2$ twiceIterative Floors and CeilingsMaking 4 with 4 ones (with a twist!)Make 2008 from Φ (Golden Ratio)Use 2, 0, 1 and 8 to make 71Create all numbers from 1-100 by using 1,3,3,7
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Use the minimum number of ones to make 29.
Here is the list of operations permitted:
- "Standard" operations, such as: $x+y$, $x-y$, $xtimes y$, $xdiv y$
- Negation: $-x$
- Exponentiation of two numbers: $x^y$
- The square root of a number: $sqrt{x}$
- The factorial: $x!$
- Concatenation of the original digits: $x|x$, $x|x|x$, $x|x|x$, etc. This means that you cannot concatenate like this: $(1+1)|1 = 2|1 = 21$
You can only use ones, and the result must be exactly $29$, not "about" 29.
You may not use any other operations. That includes $log{x}$, $left lfloor{x}right rfloor$, $left lceil{x}right rceil$ and any others. You must only use base 10, and you not use any decimal points (i.e. no .1, .11, etc.).
The record to beat is 7.
mathematics calculation-puzzle formation-of-numbers
New contributor
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show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Use the minimum number of ones to make 29.
Here is the list of operations permitted:
- "Standard" operations, such as: $x+y$, $x-y$, $xtimes y$, $xdiv y$
- Negation: $-x$
- Exponentiation of two numbers: $x^y$
- The square root of a number: $sqrt{x}$
- The factorial: $x!$
- Concatenation of the original digits: $x|x$, $x|x|x$, $x|x|x$, etc. This means that you cannot concatenate like this: $(1+1)|1 = 2|1 = 21$
You can only use ones, and the result must be exactly $29$, not "about" 29.
You may not use any other operations. That includes $log{x}$, $left lfloor{x}right rfloor$, $left lceil{x}right rceil$ and any others. You must only use base 10, and you not use any decimal points (i.e. no .1, .11, etc.).
The record to beat is 7.
mathematics calculation-puzzle formation-of-numbers
New contributor
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10
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(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
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– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
2
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Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
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– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
2
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@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
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– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
1
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Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
2
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I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
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– ppeterka
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
Use the minimum number of ones to make 29.
Here is the list of operations permitted:
- "Standard" operations, such as: $x+y$, $x-y$, $xtimes y$, $xdiv y$
- Negation: $-x$
- Exponentiation of two numbers: $x^y$
- The square root of a number: $sqrt{x}$
- The factorial: $x!$
- Concatenation of the original digits: $x|x$, $x|x|x$, $x|x|x$, etc. This means that you cannot concatenate like this: $(1+1)|1 = 2|1 = 21$
You can only use ones, and the result must be exactly $29$, not "about" 29.
You may not use any other operations. That includes $log{x}$, $left lfloor{x}right rfloor$, $left lceil{x}right rceil$ and any others. You must only use base 10, and you not use any decimal points (i.e. no .1, .11, etc.).
The record to beat is 7.
mathematics calculation-puzzle formation-of-numbers
New contributor
$endgroup$
Use the minimum number of ones to make 29.
Here is the list of operations permitted:
- "Standard" operations, such as: $x+y$, $x-y$, $xtimes y$, $xdiv y$
- Negation: $-x$
- Exponentiation of two numbers: $x^y$
- The square root of a number: $sqrt{x}$
- The factorial: $x!$
- Concatenation of the original digits: $x|x$, $x|x|x$, $x|x|x$, etc. This means that you cannot concatenate like this: $(1+1)|1 = 2|1 = 21$
You can only use ones, and the result must be exactly $29$, not "about" 29.
You may not use any other operations. That includes $log{x}$, $left lfloor{x}right rfloor$, $left lceil{x}right rceil$ and any others. You must only use base 10, and you not use any decimal points (i.e. no .1, .11, etc.).
The record to beat is 7.
mathematics calculation-puzzle formation-of-numbers
mathematics calculation-puzzle formation-of-numbers
New contributor
New contributor
edited yesterday
Hugh
2,27511126
2,27511126
New contributor
asked Feb 28 at 2:18
Allan CaoAllan Cao
235311
235311
New contributor
New contributor
10
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(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
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– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
2
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Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
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– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
2
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@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
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– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
1
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Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
2
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I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
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– ppeterka
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
10
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(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
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– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
2
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Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
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– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
2
$begingroup$
@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
$endgroup$
– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
1
$begingroup$
Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
$endgroup$
– ppeterka
yesterday
10
10
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(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
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– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
$begingroup$
(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
$endgroup$
– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
2
2
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Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
$begingroup$
Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
2
2
$begingroup$
@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
$endgroup$
– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
$begingroup$
@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
$endgroup$
– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
1
1
$begingroup$
Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
$endgroup$
– ppeterka
yesterday
$begingroup$
I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
$endgroup$
– ppeterka
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
10 Answers
10
active
oldest
votes
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Here's a 7-digit solution:
$(11-1)times(1+1+1)-1$
Searching exhaustively is somewhat complicated. Let's say, broadly, impossible. One is able to take indefinite factorials and raise to ludicrous powers and take arbitrary numbers of square roots. These endeavors would almost certainly lead nowhere but computers don't necessarily know that.
Not only so, but a search that doesn't use symbolic algorithms to handle sqrts and fractions might find something that looks like a solution but is only 29.0000000.
Nonetheless, one can arbitrarily put "reasonable" restrictions on such things and say that we are not going to do, for example, $a^b$ unless $0<a<1000$ and $-20<b<20$.
Doing this, I find that there are 28,948 different numbers that can be reached with six 1s. None of them is 29. My code just tracked one solution for each number that it found and spat out the above solution which suggests to me that it's the only one with 7 digits. I haven't tried to do list them all, but if someone else wants to wade through my code it is below
def factorial(n):
if n<=1: return 1
return n*factorial(n-1)
sols={}
sols[1] = {}
sols[1][1] = "1"
vals = set([1])
digits=2
while digits<=7:
sols[digits] = {}
#concat
concat = "1"*digits
if eval(concat) not in vals:
sols[digits][eval(concat)] = concat
vals.add(eval(concat))
#simple sum
if digits not in vals:
ssum = "1+"*digits
sols[digits][digits] = ssum[:-1]
vals.add(digits)
#partitions
for part1 in range(1,digits):
part2 = digits-part1
if part1>part2: break
for val1 in sols[part1]:
for val2 in sols[part2]:
#multiply
if val1*val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1*val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")*("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1*val2)
#add
if val1+val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1+val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")+("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1+val2)
#divide
if val2 !=0:
if val1/val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1/val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")/("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1/val2)
if val1 !=0:
if val2/val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2/val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")/("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2/val1)
#subtract
if val1-val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1-val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")-("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1-val2)
if val2-val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2-val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")-("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2-val1)
#exponent
if val1 > 0 and val1 < 1000 and abs(val2)<20:
if val1**val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1**val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")^("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1**val2)
if val2 > 0 and val2 < 1000 and abs(val1)<20:
if val2**val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2**val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")^("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2**val1)
#adjustments
k = list(sols[digits].keys())[:]
for val in k:
#Sqrt
if val>0:
if val**0.5 not in vals:
sols[digits][val**0.5] = "sqrt("+sols[digits][val]+")"
vals.add(val**0.5)
if val==int(val) and val<=20:
if factorial(val) not in vals:
sols[digits][factorial(val)] = "("+sols[digits][val]+")!"
vals.add(factorial(val))
if 29 in vals:
break
#next number
print(digits,len(sols[digits]))
digits+=1
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That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
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– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
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Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
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– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
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The paper uses different rules.
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– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
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I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
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– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
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I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
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– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
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show 5 more comments
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I thought I had it with this:
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{1+1}}$.
Until I remembered that
there's no function to square a number without using any digits, even though there is a function to take a square root without using any extra digits. For the past hour I've been trying to figure out how to square a number just using the square root.
Since square root is a number raised to the power of $frac{1}{2}$, I'm wondering if I can just take a reciprocal of that for a total of six 1s. My guess is that this isn't allowed because there isn't a way to actually write this down!
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{frac{1}{1/2}}}$
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Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
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– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
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Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
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– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
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@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
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– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
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What about negative exponents?
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– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
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I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
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– Adonalsium
yesterday
add a comment |
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As stated by luchonacho, exhaustion will show that it's not possible in less than 7 digits with those operations.
Not showing negative values, as they are symmetric to positive ones, here are the easy attainable integer values:
1 digit: 1
2 digits: 0, 2, 11, 11!, ...
3 digits: 3, 6, 10, 12, 111, 720, 10!, ...
4 digits: 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, 22, 24, 110, 112, 120, 121, 719, 721, 1111, ...
5 digits: 8, 14, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, 33, 36, 64, 66, 100, 109, 113, 119, 122, 132, 144, 222, 360, ...
And now we know we're stuck, because to achieve 29 (a prime number) in 6 digits, we would actually need any of those values in 5 digits: 28, 30, 784, 900, ... and we don't have them.
As such, any solution for 29 in 7 digits is optimal:
29 = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1 (found by Dr Xorile)
Note that there may be room for a non-trivial sum of factorial numbers to reach a square power of 29 (or of 29±1), as found by Amorydai, but it's unlikely to beat 7 digits.
For illustration, while all values below 27 are attainable trivially with 6 digits or less, here are some solutions in 7 digits for numbers greater or equal to 28:
28 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1
28 in 7 digits = (1+1)×(11+1+1+1)
29 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1
30 in 6 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1)+11
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)+1
31 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1-1
32 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1
33 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)×11
34 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11+1
35 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)-1
36 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)
37 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1
38 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1+1
39 in 7 digits = (11+1+1)×(1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1)×(1+1)
15 is the lowest positive value requiring 6 digits with this reasoning.
28 is the lowest positive value requiring 7 digits with this reasoning.
41 is the lowest positive value requiring 8 digits with this reasoning.
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Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
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– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
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The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
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– Brilliand
2 days ago
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@Brilliand inx! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.
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– Cœur
2 days ago
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@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
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– Riker
2 days ago
1
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Note that you can get27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!
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– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
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show 2 more comments
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I managed three 8's:
$(1+1+1+1)!+(1+1+1)!-1=24+6-1$
$(1+1+1)!times((1+1+1)!-1)-1=6times(6-1)-1$
$(11+1+1+1)times(1+1)+1=14times2-1$
and a very dodgy 6:
$11!!!!!!!!-(1+1+1+1)=11times3-4$
and 4:
$(11-1)!!!!!!!-1=10times3-1$
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12
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... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
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– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
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@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
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– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
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I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
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multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
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– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
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Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
add a comment |
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According to my analysis, there is no solution using less than 7 digits. The proof would require an exhaustion of every possible operation from 29, reducing the dimensionality of the problem one digit at a time, like a tree. I haven't followed all the leaves of the tree, but it seems clear no one leads to a solution.
To see how my logic works, consider an example:
$29 + 1 = 30$
Here we have a sub problem, which is to find a way to get to 30 using 5 or less digits. You can then follow the leaves of the tree, reducing the dimensionality one at a time, until you see there is no solution. For example, 30 + 1 = 31, and finding 31 from 4 digits, etc. Or 30 + 11 = 41, and so on.
Importantly, many of the branches of the original problem are identical. For example, $29 + 1 = 30$ is the same as $29+1! = 30$; and the subbranch above $30 + 1 = 31$ is exactly the same as $29+(1+1) = 31$ and $29+(1+1)! = 31$.
Same logic applies to, for instance, $29-1=28$. You need to get to 28 using 5 digits. Following the branches seem to lead to nowhere.
Some routes are evidently discarded. For instance, 11! = 39916800, too high. Would need to be scaled with a relatively high number, like 111. But that uses 5 of 6 digits. No way to use the last one meaningfully. Same logic with 111! or other like (11-1)! Other routes, like (1+1+1)!=6, requires you to produce 23 (so 23+6=29) with only 3 digits. Impossible.
No idea why you would ever consider square root as a relevant operation. Temptation here is that somehow a squared root times a natural number ($sqrt{a}b$) will give a natural number. However, this is only true if $ab^2$ is itself the square of a natural number. So you should start by searching for the latter. For example, take 36. It's the square of 6. Can you find natural numbers a and b such that $ab^2=36$? Yes, a=4 and b=3, or a=9 and b=2. But these use too many digits. Follow down the tree and you are done very quickly. What about a=11? It can be seen that it is not possible to find a natural number b such that $sqrt{11b^2}$ is a natural number.
The above applies the same with division, e.g. $frac{sqrt{a}}{b}$ or $frac{b}{sqrt{a}}$ routes.
I haven't given you any proof of my claim and I might be totally wrong. But my methodology (reducing the dimensionality of the problem one at a time) led me to nowhere.
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3
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My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
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– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
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@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
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– luchonacho
2 days ago
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The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
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– user2357112
2 days ago
4
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Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can get an answer accurate to within 0.12% with six 1s:
$$sqrt{sqrt{sqrt{11^{11}}}}+1+1 approx 29.0343$$
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Lowest I managed so far is 9 digits:
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1)! + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1;
11*(1 + 1 + 1) - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)
Some other ways I came up with:
(1 + 1)^(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 - 1 - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)!/(1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)^(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
11*(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For the sake of completeness, here's an 8 digit solution:
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1) + 1 + 1
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This was posted before the question was edited to demand an integer, and requires that the rules accept rounding, but it does produce the digits 29. Six is achievable in this way:
$sqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11 approx 29.1033$
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
11+11+11-1-1-1-1=29 This is my best guess.
New contributor
$endgroup$
7
$begingroup$
Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
add a comment |
protected by Rubio♦ Feb 28 at 7:46
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$begingroup$
Here's a 7-digit solution:
$(11-1)times(1+1+1)-1$
Searching exhaustively is somewhat complicated. Let's say, broadly, impossible. One is able to take indefinite factorials and raise to ludicrous powers and take arbitrary numbers of square roots. These endeavors would almost certainly lead nowhere but computers don't necessarily know that.
Not only so, but a search that doesn't use symbolic algorithms to handle sqrts and fractions might find something that looks like a solution but is only 29.0000000.
Nonetheless, one can arbitrarily put "reasonable" restrictions on such things and say that we are not going to do, for example, $a^b$ unless $0<a<1000$ and $-20<b<20$.
Doing this, I find that there are 28,948 different numbers that can be reached with six 1s. None of them is 29. My code just tracked one solution for each number that it found and spat out the above solution which suggests to me that it's the only one with 7 digits. I haven't tried to do list them all, but if someone else wants to wade through my code it is below
def factorial(n):
if n<=1: return 1
return n*factorial(n-1)
sols={}
sols[1] = {}
sols[1][1] = "1"
vals = set([1])
digits=2
while digits<=7:
sols[digits] = {}
#concat
concat = "1"*digits
if eval(concat) not in vals:
sols[digits][eval(concat)] = concat
vals.add(eval(concat))
#simple sum
if digits not in vals:
ssum = "1+"*digits
sols[digits][digits] = ssum[:-1]
vals.add(digits)
#partitions
for part1 in range(1,digits):
part2 = digits-part1
if part1>part2: break
for val1 in sols[part1]:
for val2 in sols[part2]:
#multiply
if val1*val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1*val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")*("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1*val2)
#add
if val1+val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1+val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")+("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1+val2)
#divide
if val2 !=0:
if val1/val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1/val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")/("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1/val2)
if val1 !=0:
if val2/val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2/val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")/("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2/val1)
#subtract
if val1-val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1-val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")-("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1-val2)
if val2-val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2-val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")-("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2-val1)
#exponent
if val1 > 0 and val1 < 1000 and abs(val2)<20:
if val1**val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1**val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")^("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1**val2)
if val2 > 0 and val2 < 1000 and abs(val1)<20:
if val2**val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2**val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")^("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2**val1)
#adjustments
k = list(sols[digits].keys())[:]
for val in k:
#Sqrt
if val>0:
if val**0.5 not in vals:
sols[digits][val**0.5] = "sqrt("+sols[digits][val]+")"
vals.add(val**0.5)
if val==int(val) and val<=20:
if factorial(val) not in vals:
sols[digits][factorial(val)] = "("+sols[digits][val]+")!"
vals.add(factorial(val))
if 29 in vals:
break
#next number
print(digits,len(sols[digits]))
digits+=1
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Here's a 7-digit solution:
$(11-1)times(1+1+1)-1$
Searching exhaustively is somewhat complicated. Let's say, broadly, impossible. One is able to take indefinite factorials and raise to ludicrous powers and take arbitrary numbers of square roots. These endeavors would almost certainly lead nowhere but computers don't necessarily know that.
Not only so, but a search that doesn't use symbolic algorithms to handle sqrts and fractions might find something that looks like a solution but is only 29.0000000.
Nonetheless, one can arbitrarily put "reasonable" restrictions on such things and say that we are not going to do, for example, $a^b$ unless $0<a<1000$ and $-20<b<20$.
Doing this, I find that there are 28,948 different numbers that can be reached with six 1s. None of them is 29. My code just tracked one solution for each number that it found and spat out the above solution which suggests to me that it's the only one with 7 digits. I haven't tried to do list them all, but if someone else wants to wade through my code it is below
def factorial(n):
if n<=1: return 1
return n*factorial(n-1)
sols={}
sols[1] = {}
sols[1][1] = "1"
vals = set([1])
digits=2
while digits<=7:
sols[digits] = {}
#concat
concat = "1"*digits
if eval(concat) not in vals:
sols[digits][eval(concat)] = concat
vals.add(eval(concat))
#simple sum
if digits not in vals:
ssum = "1+"*digits
sols[digits][digits] = ssum[:-1]
vals.add(digits)
#partitions
for part1 in range(1,digits):
part2 = digits-part1
if part1>part2: break
for val1 in sols[part1]:
for val2 in sols[part2]:
#multiply
if val1*val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1*val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")*("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1*val2)
#add
if val1+val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1+val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")+("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1+val2)
#divide
if val2 !=0:
if val1/val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1/val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")/("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1/val2)
if val1 !=0:
if val2/val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2/val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")/("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2/val1)
#subtract
if val1-val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1-val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")-("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1-val2)
if val2-val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2-val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")-("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2-val1)
#exponent
if val1 > 0 and val1 < 1000 and abs(val2)<20:
if val1**val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1**val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")^("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1**val2)
if val2 > 0 and val2 < 1000 and abs(val1)<20:
if val2**val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2**val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")^("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2**val1)
#adjustments
k = list(sols[digits].keys())[:]
for val in k:
#Sqrt
if val>0:
if val**0.5 not in vals:
sols[digits][val**0.5] = "sqrt("+sols[digits][val]+")"
vals.add(val**0.5)
if val==int(val) and val<=20:
if factorial(val) not in vals:
sols[digits][factorial(val)] = "("+sols[digits][val]+")!"
vals.add(factorial(val))
if 29 in vals:
break
#next number
print(digits,len(sols[digits]))
digits+=1
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Here's a 7-digit solution:
$(11-1)times(1+1+1)-1$
Searching exhaustively is somewhat complicated. Let's say, broadly, impossible. One is able to take indefinite factorials and raise to ludicrous powers and take arbitrary numbers of square roots. These endeavors would almost certainly lead nowhere but computers don't necessarily know that.
Not only so, but a search that doesn't use symbolic algorithms to handle sqrts and fractions might find something that looks like a solution but is only 29.0000000.
Nonetheless, one can arbitrarily put "reasonable" restrictions on such things and say that we are not going to do, for example, $a^b$ unless $0<a<1000$ and $-20<b<20$.
Doing this, I find that there are 28,948 different numbers that can be reached with six 1s. None of them is 29. My code just tracked one solution for each number that it found and spat out the above solution which suggests to me that it's the only one with 7 digits. I haven't tried to do list them all, but if someone else wants to wade through my code it is below
def factorial(n):
if n<=1: return 1
return n*factorial(n-1)
sols={}
sols[1] = {}
sols[1][1] = "1"
vals = set([1])
digits=2
while digits<=7:
sols[digits] = {}
#concat
concat = "1"*digits
if eval(concat) not in vals:
sols[digits][eval(concat)] = concat
vals.add(eval(concat))
#simple sum
if digits not in vals:
ssum = "1+"*digits
sols[digits][digits] = ssum[:-1]
vals.add(digits)
#partitions
for part1 in range(1,digits):
part2 = digits-part1
if part1>part2: break
for val1 in sols[part1]:
for val2 in sols[part2]:
#multiply
if val1*val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1*val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")*("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1*val2)
#add
if val1+val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1+val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")+("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1+val2)
#divide
if val2 !=0:
if val1/val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1/val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")/("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1/val2)
if val1 !=0:
if val2/val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2/val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")/("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2/val1)
#subtract
if val1-val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1-val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")-("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1-val2)
if val2-val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2-val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")-("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2-val1)
#exponent
if val1 > 0 and val1 < 1000 and abs(val2)<20:
if val1**val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1**val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")^("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1**val2)
if val2 > 0 and val2 < 1000 and abs(val1)<20:
if val2**val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2**val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")^("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2**val1)
#adjustments
k = list(sols[digits].keys())[:]
for val in k:
#Sqrt
if val>0:
if val**0.5 not in vals:
sols[digits][val**0.5] = "sqrt("+sols[digits][val]+")"
vals.add(val**0.5)
if val==int(val) and val<=20:
if factorial(val) not in vals:
sols[digits][factorial(val)] = "("+sols[digits][val]+")!"
vals.add(factorial(val))
if 29 in vals:
break
#next number
print(digits,len(sols[digits]))
digits+=1
$endgroup$
Here's a 7-digit solution:
$(11-1)times(1+1+1)-1$
Searching exhaustively is somewhat complicated. Let's say, broadly, impossible. One is able to take indefinite factorials and raise to ludicrous powers and take arbitrary numbers of square roots. These endeavors would almost certainly lead nowhere but computers don't necessarily know that.
Not only so, but a search that doesn't use symbolic algorithms to handle sqrts and fractions might find something that looks like a solution but is only 29.0000000.
Nonetheless, one can arbitrarily put "reasonable" restrictions on such things and say that we are not going to do, for example, $a^b$ unless $0<a<1000$ and $-20<b<20$.
Doing this, I find that there are 28,948 different numbers that can be reached with six 1s. None of them is 29. My code just tracked one solution for each number that it found and spat out the above solution which suggests to me that it's the only one with 7 digits. I haven't tried to do list them all, but if someone else wants to wade through my code it is below
def factorial(n):
if n<=1: return 1
return n*factorial(n-1)
sols={}
sols[1] = {}
sols[1][1] = "1"
vals = set([1])
digits=2
while digits<=7:
sols[digits] = {}
#concat
concat = "1"*digits
if eval(concat) not in vals:
sols[digits][eval(concat)] = concat
vals.add(eval(concat))
#simple sum
if digits not in vals:
ssum = "1+"*digits
sols[digits][digits] = ssum[:-1]
vals.add(digits)
#partitions
for part1 in range(1,digits):
part2 = digits-part1
if part1>part2: break
for val1 in sols[part1]:
for val2 in sols[part2]:
#multiply
if val1*val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1*val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")*("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1*val2)
#add
if val1+val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1+val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")+("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1+val2)
#divide
if val2 !=0:
if val1/val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1/val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")/("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1/val2)
if val1 !=0:
if val2/val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2/val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")/("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2/val1)
#subtract
if val1-val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1-val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")-("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1-val2)
if val2-val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2-val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")-("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2-val1)
#exponent
if val1 > 0 and val1 < 1000 and abs(val2)<20:
if val1**val2 not in vals:
sols[digits][val1**val2] = "("+sols[part1][val1]+")^("+sols[part2][val2]+")"
vals.add(val1**val2)
if val2 > 0 and val2 < 1000 and abs(val1)<20:
if val2**val1 not in vals:
sols[digits][val2**val1] = "("+sols[part2][val2]+")^("+sols[part1][val1]+")"
vals.add(val2**val1)
#adjustments
k = list(sols[digits].keys())[:]
for val in k:
#Sqrt
if val>0:
if val**0.5 not in vals:
sols[digits][val**0.5] = "sqrt("+sols[digits][val]+")"
vals.add(val**0.5)
if val==int(val) and val<=20:
if factorial(val) not in vals:
sols[digits][factorial(val)] = "("+sols[digits][val]+")!"
vals.add(factorial(val))
if 29 in vals:
break
#next number
print(digits,len(sols[digits]))
digits+=1
edited 2 days ago
answered Feb 28 at 2:40
Dr XorileDr Xorile
13.2k22570
13.2k22570
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
That is the minimum I achieved by referencing the Single Digit Representations of Natural Numbers paper. Hopefully 6 is possible.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 2:51
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Do you mean that allowing concatenations should reduce it from 7 to 6? Or are the constraints the same in the paper you cite as in the question above?
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
Feb 28 at 2:53
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
The paper uses different rules.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 3:04
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I wonder how much CPU power/hour would be needed to catalog all possible 7-digit solutions to this problem
$endgroup$
– moonheart08
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I'll post my attempt just now if I'm at all successful
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
I thought I had it with this:
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{1+1}}$.
Until I remembered that
there's no function to square a number without using any digits, even though there is a function to take a square root without using any extra digits. For the past hour I've been trying to figure out how to square a number just using the square root.
Since square root is a number raised to the power of $frac{1}{2}$, I'm wondering if I can just take a reciprocal of that for a total of six 1s. My guess is that this isn't allowed because there isn't a way to actually write this down!
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{frac{1}{1/2}}}$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I thought I had it with this:
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{1+1}}$.
Until I remembered that
there's no function to square a number without using any digits, even though there is a function to take a square root without using any extra digits. For the past hour I've been trying to figure out how to square a number just using the square root.
Since square root is a number raised to the power of $frac{1}{2}$, I'm wondering if I can just take a reciprocal of that for a total of six 1s. My guess is that this isn't allowed because there isn't a way to actually write this down!
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{frac{1}{1/2}}}$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I thought I had it with this:
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{1+1}}$.
Until I remembered that
there's no function to square a number without using any digits, even though there is a function to take a square root without using any extra digits. For the past hour I've been trying to figure out how to square a number just using the square root.
Since square root is a number raised to the power of $frac{1}{2}$, I'm wondering if I can just take a reciprocal of that for a total of six 1s. My guess is that this isn't allowed because there isn't a way to actually write this down!
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{frac{1}{1/2}}}$
$endgroup$
I thought I had it with this:
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{1+1}}$.
Until I remembered that
there's no function to square a number without using any digits, even though there is a function to take a square root without using any extra digits. For the past hour I've been trying to figure out how to square a number just using the square root.
Since square root is a number raised to the power of $frac{1}{2}$, I'm wondering if I can just take a reciprocal of that for a total of six 1s. My guess is that this isn't allowed because there isn't a way to actually write this down!
$sqrt{((1+1+1)!)!+11^{frac{1}{1/2}}}$
edited Feb 28 at 14:58
answered Feb 28 at 3:31
AmorydaiAmorydai
65610
65610
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Curious thing: if $f$ denotes a function (or operation), the inverse operation is commonly denoted by $f^{-1}$ (it is not an exponentiation). So, you might denote as ${sqrt{}}^{-1}$ the inverse operation to square root (i.e. squaring, thus using only one 1). Of course, it is probably not permitted by the rules.
$endgroup$
– trolley813
Feb 28 at 8:57
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
Note that $3!! = 3 times 1$ not $(3!)!$ and adding more parentheses makes your first solution a good 7.
$endgroup$
– Weather Vane
Feb 28 at 9:23
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
@WeatherVane I didn't realize that double factorial had a different meaning. Of course I meant the iterated factorial. I'll add the parenthesis.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 14:57
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
What about negative exponents?
$endgroup$
– Canadian Luke
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
$begingroup$
I like how multifactorials break every rule of math notation.
$endgroup$
– Adonalsium
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As stated by luchonacho, exhaustion will show that it's not possible in less than 7 digits with those operations.
Not showing negative values, as they are symmetric to positive ones, here are the easy attainable integer values:
1 digit: 1
2 digits: 0, 2, 11, 11!, ...
3 digits: 3, 6, 10, 12, 111, 720, 10!, ...
4 digits: 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, 22, 24, 110, 112, 120, 121, 719, 721, 1111, ...
5 digits: 8, 14, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, 33, 36, 64, 66, 100, 109, 113, 119, 122, 132, 144, 222, 360, ...
And now we know we're stuck, because to achieve 29 (a prime number) in 6 digits, we would actually need any of those values in 5 digits: 28, 30, 784, 900, ... and we don't have them.
As such, any solution for 29 in 7 digits is optimal:
29 = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1 (found by Dr Xorile)
Note that there may be room for a non-trivial sum of factorial numbers to reach a square power of 29 (or of 29±1), as found by Amorydai, but it's unlikely to beat 7 digits.
For illustration, while all values below 27 are attainable trivially with 6 digits or less, here are some solutions in 7 digits for numbers greater or equal to 28:
28 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1
28 in 7 digits = (1+1)×(11+1+1+1)
29 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1
30 in 6 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1)+11
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)+1
31 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1-1
32 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1
33 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)×11
34 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11+1
35 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)-1
36 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)
37 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1
38 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1+1
39 in 7 digits = (11+1+1)×(1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1)×(1+1)
15 is the lowest positive value requiring 6 digits with this reasoning.
28 is the lowest positive value requiring 7 digits with this reasoning.
41 is the lowest positive value requiring 8 digits with this reasoning.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand inx! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.
$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can get27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!
$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
As stated by luchonacho, exhaustion will show that it's not possible in less than 7 digits with those operations.
Not showing negative values, as they are symmetric to positive ones, here are the easy attainable integer values:
1 digit: 1
2 digits: 0, 2, 11, 11!, ...
3 digits: 3, 6, 10, 12, 111, 720, 10!, ...
4 digits: 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, 22, 24, 110, 112, 120, 121, 719, 721, 1111, ...
5 digits: 8, 14, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, 33, 36, 64, 66, 100, 109, 113, 119, 122, 132, 144, 222, 360, ...
And now we know we're stuck, because to achieve 29 (a prime number) in 6 digits, we would actually need any of those values in 5 digits: 28, 30, 784, 900, ... and we don't have them.
As such, any solution for 29 in 7 digits is optimal:
29 = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1 (found by Dr Xorile)
Note that there may be room for a non-trivial sum of factorial numbers to reach a square power of 29 (or of 29±1), as found by Amorydai, but it's unlikely to beat 7 digits.
For illustration, while all values below 27 are attainable trivially with 6 digits or less, here are some solutions in 7 digits for numbers greater or equal to 28:
28 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1
28 in 7 digits = (1+1)×(11+1+1+1)
29 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1
30 in 6 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1)+11
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)+1
31 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1-1
32 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1
33 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)×11
34 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11+1
35 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)-1
36 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)
37 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1
38 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1+1
39 in 7 digits = (11+1+1)×(1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1)×(1+1)
15 is the lowest positive value requiring 6 digits with this reasoning.
28 is the lowest positive value requiring 7 digits with this reasoning.
41 is the lowest positive value requiring 8 digits with this reasoning.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand inx! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.
$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can get27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!
$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
As stated by luchonacho, exhaustion will show that it's not possible in less than 7 digits with those operations.
Not showing negative values, as they are symmetric to positive ones, here are the easy attainable integer values:
1 digit: 1
2 digits: 0, 2, 11, 11!, ...
3 digits: 3, 6, 10, 12, 111, 720, 10!, ...
4 digits: 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, 22, 24, 110, 112, 120, 121, 719, 721, 1111, ...
5 digits: 8, 14, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, 33, 36, 64, 66, 100, 109, 113, 119, 122, 132, 144, 222, 360, ...
And now we know we're stuck, because to achieve 29 (a prime number) in 6 digits, we would actually need any of those values in 5 digits: 28, 30, 784, 900, ... and we don't have them.
As such, any solution for 29 in 7 digits is optimal:
29 = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1 (found by Dr Xorile)
Note that there may be room for a non-trivial sum of factorial numbers to reach a square power of 29 (or of 29±1), as found by Amorydai, but it's unlikely to beat 7 digits.
For illustration, while all values below 27 are attainable trivially with 6 digits or less, here are some solutions in 7 digits for numbers greater or equal to 28:
28 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1
28 in 7 digits = (1+1)×(11+1+1+1)
29 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1
30 in 6 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1)+11
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)+1
31 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1-1
32 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1
33 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)×11
34 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11+1
35 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)-1
36 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)
37 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1
38 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1+1
39 in 7 digits = (11+1+1)×(1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1)×(1+1)
15 is the lowest positive value requiring 6 digits with this reasoning.
28 is the lowest positive value requiring 7 digits with this reasoning.
41 is the lowest positive value requiring 8 digits with this reasoning.
$endgroup$
As stated by luchonacho, exhaustion will show that it's not possible in less than 7 digits with those operations.
Not showing negative values, as they are symmetric to positive ones, here are the easy attainable integer values:
1 digit: 1
2 digits: 0, 2, 11, 11!, ...
3 digits: 3, 6, 10, 12, 111, 720, 10!, ...
4 digits: 4, 5, 7, 9, 13, 22, 24, 110, 112, 120, 121, 719, 721, 1111, ...
5 digits: 8, 14, 17, 20, 21, 23, 25, 33, 36, 64, 66, 100, 109, 113, 119, 122, 132, 144, 222, 360, ...
And now we know we're stuck, because to achieve 29 (a prime number) in 6 digits, we would actually need any of those values in 5 digits: 28, 30, 784, 900, ... and we don't have them.
As such, any solution for 29 in 7 digits is optimal:
29 = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1 (found by Dr Xorile)
Note that there may be room for a non-trivial sum of factorial numbers to reach a square power of 29 (or of 29±1), as found by Amorydai, but it's unlikely to beat 7 digits.
For illustration, while all values below 27 are attainable trivially with 6 digits or less, here are some solutions in 7 digits for numbers greater or equal to 28:
28 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1
28 in 7 digits = (1+1)×(11+1+1+1)
29 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)−1
30 in 6 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1)+11
31 in 7 digits = (11−1)×(1+1+1)+1
31 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1-1
32 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11-1
33 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)×11
34 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)×11+1
35 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)-1
36 in 5 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)
37 in 6 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1
38 in 7 digits = (1+1+1)!^(1+1)+1+1
39 in 7 digits = (11+1+1)×(1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1+1+1)
40 in 7 digits = (11-1)×(1+1)×(1+1)
15 is the lowest positive value requiring 6 digits with this reasoning.
28 is the lowest positive value requiring 7 digits with this reasoning.
41 is the lowest positive value requiring 8 digits with this reasoning.
edited yesterday
answered Feb 28 at 14:26
CœurCœur
24117
24117
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand inx! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.
$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can get27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!
$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand inx! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.
$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can get27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!
$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well argued! Can you somehow build a mathematical proof from this line of thinking? It would be great.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
3
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The claim that it's impossible to reach 29 by some iterated factorial, followed by a trivial addition/subtraction, followed by an iterated square root, might be very hard to prove (and necessary, because factorial and square root are free actions in this ruleset).
$endgroup$
– Brilliand
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand in
x! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Brilliand in
x! ± 1
, you never have a divisor lower than x, so subsequent square roots will always have a factor greater than x itself.$endgroup$
– Cœur
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Cœur could you add two factorials then modify the result? I would hazard a guess that you could find something that roots to a factor smaller than x. Unlikely whether that would be doable in less than 6 though, more as a counterexample to that proof.
$endgroup$
– Riker
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Note that you can get
27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Note that you can get
27 = (1+1+1)^(1+1+1)
for 6 digits. Just for your illustration!$endgroup$
– CriminallyVulgar
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I managed three 8's:
$(1+1+1+1)!+(1+1+1)!-1=24+6-1$
$(1+1+1)!times((1+1+1)!-1)-1=6times(6-1)-1$
$(11+1+1+1)times(1+1)+1=14times2-1$
and a very dodgy 6:
$11!!!!!!!!-(1+1+1+1)=11times3-4$
and 4:
$(11-1)!!!!!!!-1=10times3-1$
$endgroup$
12
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I managed three 8's:
$(1+1+1+1)!+(1+1+1)!-1=24+6-1$
$(1+1+1)!times((1+1+1)!-1)-1=6times(6-1)-1$
$(11+1+1+1)times(1+1)+1=14times2-1$
and a very dodgy 6:
$11!!!!!!!!-(1+1+1+1)=11times3-4$
and 4:
$(11-1)!!!!!!!-1=10times3-1$
$endgroup$
12
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I managed three 8's:
$(1+1+1+1)!+(1+1+1)!-1=24+6-1$
$(1+1+1)!times((1+1+1)!-1)-1=6times(6-1)-1$
$(11+1+1+1)times(1+1)+1=14times2-1$
and a very dodgy 6:
$11!!!!!!!!-(1+1+1+1)=11times3-4$
and 4:
$(11-1)!!!!!!!-1=10times3-1$
$endgroup$
I managed three 8's:
$(1+1+1+1)!+(1+1+1)!-1=24+6-1$
$(1+1+1)!times((1+1+1)!-1)-1=6times(6-1)-1$
$(11+1+1+1)times(1+1)+1=14times2-1$
and a very dodgy 6:
$11!!!!!!!!-(1+1+1+1)=11times3-4$
and 4:
$(11-1)!!!!!!!-1=10times3-1$
answered Feb 28 at 8:22
JonMark PerryJonMark Perry
19.5k63992
19.5k63992
12
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
add a comment |
12
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
12
12
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
$begingroup$
... I don't think that's how factorial works. I'm very sure that is not how factorial works.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 8:43
9
9
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
$begingroup$
@AllanCao I believe JonMark Perry is using extended factorial functions. For example, a double factorial is defined to be $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(3)(1)$ if $n$ is odd, and $n(n-2)(n-4)(n-6)...(4)(2)$ if $n$ is even. If we're calculating a triple-factorial, that evaluates to $n(n-3)(n-6)(n-9)...$. In the case of $(11 - 1)!!!!!!!$ (a seven-factorial), it simplifies like this: $(11 - 1)!!!!!!! = (10)!!!!!!! = (10)(10-7) = (10)(3) = 30$
$endgroup$
– Hugh
Feb 28 at 8:50
2
2
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I see. Since they aren't really factorial (and kind of cheating/cheap), the solution for 6 and 4 don't work.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
$begingroup$
multi-factorial, but in most 24-type games they are considered to be a big cheat!!! mind you, so is (1+1).concat(11-1-1). @AllanCao
$endgroup$
– JonMark Perry
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Which is why the concatenation is only for the original digit.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to my analysis, there is no solution using less than 7 digits. The proof would require an exhaustion of every possible operation from 29, reducing the dimensionality of the problem one digit at a time, like a tree. I haven't followed all the leaves of the tree, but it seems clear no one leads to a solution.
To see how my logic works, consider an example:
$29 + 1 = 30$
Here we have a sub problem, which is to find a way to get to 30 using 5 or less digits. You can then follow the leaves of the tree, reducing the dimensionality one at a time, until you see there is no solution. For example, 30 + 1 = 31, and finding 31 from 4 digits, etc. Or 30 + 11 = 41, and so on.
Importantly, many of the branches of the original problem are identical. For example, $29 + 1 = 30$ is the same as $29+1! = 30$; and the subbranch above $30 + 1 = 31$ is exactly the same as $29+(1+1) = 31$ and $29+(1+1)! = 31$.
Same logic applies to, for instance, $29-1=28$. You need to get to 28 using 5 digits. Following the branches seem to lead to nowhere.
Some routes are evidently discarded. For instance, 11! = 39916800, too high. Would need to be scaled with a relatively high number, like 111. But that uses 5 of 6 digits. No way to use the last one meaningfully. Same logic with 111! or other like (11-1)! Other routes, like (1+1+1)!=6, requires you to produce 23 (so 23+6=29) with only 3 digits. Impossible.
No idea why you would ever consider square root as a relevant operation. Temptation here is that somehow a squared root times a natural number ($sqrt{a}b$) will give a natural number. However, this is only true if $ab^2$ is itself the square of a natural number. So you should start by searching for the latter. For example, take 36. It's the square of 6. Can you find natural numbers a and b such that $ab^2=36$? Yes, a=4 and b=3, or a=9 and b=2. But these use too many digits. Follow down the tree and you are done very quickly. What about a=11? It can be seen that it is not possible to find a natural number b such that $sqrt{11b^2}$ is a natural number.
The above applies the same with division, e.g. $frac{sqrt{a}}{b}$ or $frac{b}{sqrt{a}}$ routes.
I haven't given you any proof of my claim and I might be totally wrong. But my methodology (reducing the dimensionality of the problem one at a time) led me to nowhere.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to my analysis, there is no solution using less than 7 digits. The proof would require an exhaustion of every possible operation from 29, reducing the dimensionality of the problem one digit at a time, like a tree. I haven't followed all the leaves of the tree, but it seems clear no one leads to a solution.
To see how my logic works, consider an example:
$29 + 1 = 30$
Here we have a sub problem, which is to find a way to get to 30 using 5 or less digits. You can then follow the leaves of the tree, reducing the dimensionality one at a time, until you see there is no solution. For example, 30 + 1 = 31, and finding 31 from 4 digits, etc. Or 30 + 11 = 41, and so on.
Importantly, many of the branches of the original problem are identical. For example, $29 + 1 = 30$ is the same as $29+1! = 30$; and the subbranch above $30 + 1 = 31$ is exactly the same as $29+(1+1) = 31$ and $29+(1+1)! = 31$.
Same logic applies to, for instance, $29-1=28$. You need to get to 28 using 5 digits. Following the branches seem to lead to nowhere.
Some routes are evidently discarded. For instance, 11! = 39916800, too high. Would need to be scaled with a relatively high number, like 111. But that uses 5 of 6 digits. No way to use the last one meaningfully. Same logic with 111! or other like (11-1)! Other routes, like (1+1+1)!=6, requires you to produce 23 (so 23+6=29) with only 3 digits. Impossible.
No idea why you would ever consider square root as a relevant operation. Temptation here is that somehow a squared root times a natural number ($sqrt{a}b$) will give a natural number. However, this is only true if $ab^2$ is itself the square of a natural number. So you should start by searching for the latter. For example, take 36. It's the square of 6. Can you find natural numbers a and b such that $ab^2=36$? Yes, a=4 and b=3, or a=9 and b=2. But these use too many digits. Follow down the tree and you are done very quickly. What about a=11? It can be seen that it is not possible to find a natural number b such that $sqrt{11b^2}$ is a natural number.
The above applies the same with division, e.g. $frac{sqrt{a}}{b}$ or $frac{b}{sqrt{a}}$ routes.
I haven't given you any proof of my claim and I might be totally wrong. But my methodology (reducing the dimensionality of the problem one at a time) led me to nowhere.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to my analysis, there is no solution using less than 7 digits. The proof would require an exhaustion of every possible operation from 29, reducing the dimensionality of the problem one digit at a time, like a tree. I haven't followed all the leaves of the tree, but it seems clear no one leads to a solution.
To see how my logic works, consider an example:
$29 + 1 = 30$
Here we have a sub problem, which is to find a way to get to 30 using 5 or less digits. You can then follow the leaves of the tree, reducing the dimensionality one at a time, until you see there is no solution. For example, 30 + 1 = 31, and finding 31 from 4 digits, etc. Or 30 + 11 = 41, and so on.
Importantly, many of the branches of the original problem are identical. For example, $29 + 1 = 30$ is the same as $29+1! = 30$; and the subbranch above $30 + 1 = 31$ is exactly the same as $29+(1+1) = 31$ and $29+(1+1)! = 31$.
Same logic applies to, for instance, $29-1=28$. You need to get to 28 using 5 digits. Following the branches seem to lead to nowhere.
Some routes are evidently discarded. For instance, 11! = 39916800, too high. Would need to be scaled with a relatively high number, like 111. But that uses 5 of 6 digits. No way to use the last one meaningfully. Same logic with 111! or other like (11-1)! Other routes, like (1+1+1)!=6, requires you to produce 23 (so 23+6=29) with only 3 digits. Impossible.
No idea why you would ever consider square root as a relevant operation. Temptation here is that somehow a squared root times a natural number ($sqrt{a}b$) will give a natural number. However, this is only true if $ab^2$ is itself the square of a natural number. So you should start by searching for the latter. For example, take 36. It's the square of 6. Can you find natural numbers a and b such that $ab^2=36$? Yes, a=4 and b=3, or a=9 and b=2. But these use too many digits. Follow down the tree and you are done very quickly. What about a=11? It can be seen that it is not possible to find a natural number b such that $sqrt{11b^2}$ is a natural number.
The above applies the same with division, e.g. $frac{sqrt{a}}{b}$ or $frac{b}{sqrt{a}}$ routes.
I haven't given you any proof of my claim and I might be totally wrong. But my methodology (reducing the dimensionality of the problem one at a time) led me to nowhere.
$endgroup$
According to my analysis, there is no solution using less than 7 digits. The proof would require an exhaustion of every possible operation from 29, reducing the dimensionality of the problem one digit at a time, like a tree. I haven't followed all the leaves of the tree, but it seems clear no one leads to a solution.
To see how my logic works, consider an example:
$29 + 1 = 30$
Here we have a sub problem, which is to find a way to get to 30 using 5 or less digits. You can then follow the leaves of the tree, reducing the dimensionality one at a time, until you see there is no solution. For example, 30 + 1 = 31, and finding 31 from 4 digits, etc. Or 30 + 11 = 41, and so on.
Importantly, many of the branches of the original problem are identical. For example, $29 + 1 = 30$ is the same as $29+1! = 30$; and the subbranch above $30 + 1 = 31$ is exactly the same as $29+(1+1) = 31$ and $29+(1+1)! = 31$.
Same logic applies to, for instance, $29-1=28$. You need to get to 28 using 5 digits. Following the branches seem to lead to nowhere.
Some routes are evidently discarded. For instance, 11! = 39916800, too high. Would need to be scaled with a relatively high number, like 111. But that uses 5 of 6 digits. No way to use the last one meaningfully. Same logic with 111! or other like (11-1)! Other routes, like (1+1+1)!=6, requires you to produce 23 (so 23+6=29) with only 3 digits. Impossible.
No idea why you would ever consider square root as a relevant operation. Temptation here is that somehow a squared root times a natural number ($sqrt{a}b$) will give a natural number. However, this is only true if $ab^2$ is itself the square of a natural number. So you should start by searching for the latter. For example, take 36. It's the square of 6. Can you find natural numbers a and b such that $ab^2=36$? Yes, a=4 and b=3, or a=9 and b=2. But these use too many digits. Follow down the tree and you are done very quickly. What about a=11? It can be seen that it is not possible to find a natural number b such that $sqrt{11b^2}$ is a natural number.
The above applies the same with division, e.g. $frac{sqrt{a}}{b}$ or $frac{b}{sqrt{a}}$ routes.
I haven't given you any proof of my claim and I might be totally wrong. But my methodology (reducing the dimensionality of the problem one at a time) led me to nowhere.
edited Feb 28 at 12:50
answered Feb 28 at 11:53
luchonacholuchonacho
2151212
2151212
3
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
3
3
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
My solution for 7 digits uses a square root quite nicely.
$endgroup$
– Amorydai
Feb 28 at 15:15
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Amorydai True. I did overlook something like $sqrt{a+b}$, focusing instead only on multiplicative forms, like $sqrt{ab}$. I just had another go from derivations of yours, and it seems impossible to reduce it 1 digit. I could be wrong! As I said, I cannot offer proof, only failed trials. I do not want to go down every possible branch of the tree, even though it is possible.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
The only cases where $sqrt{a}b$ is a natural with both $a$ and $b$ natural are when $a$ is already a square, or when $b=0$.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
4
4
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Your "reducing the dimensionality one at a time" logic fails to account for the possibility of combining two expressions that both use more than one digit. For example, $(1+1+1)(1+1+1)$ cannot be decomposed into a 5-digit expression and a 1-digit expression.
$endgroup$
– user2357112
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@user2357112 True, but to the extent that these expressions have to be multiplied or added to other terms in order to reach 29, they are covered in my examples. For instance, your example gives a 9. That is precisely one of my examples, where $a=9$ and $b=2$. In case of addition/substraction, you still need to get to 20 (29-9) or 38 (29+9) using the remaining digits.
$endgroup$
– luchonacho
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can get an answer accurate to within 0.12% with six 1s:
$$sqrt{sqrt{sqrt{11^{11}}}}+1+1 approx 29.0343$$
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
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– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
add a comment |
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I can get an answer accurate to within 0.12% with six 1s:
$$sqrt{sqrt{sqrt{11^{11}}}}+1+1 approx 29.0343$$
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2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can get an answer accurate to within 0.12% with six 1s:
$$sqrt{sqrt{sqrt{11^{11}}}}+1+1 approx 29.0343$$
$endgroup$
I can get an answer accurate to within 0.12% with six 1s:
$$sqrt{sqrt{sqrt{11^{11}}}}+1+1 approx 29.0343$$
answered Feb 28 at 4:53
jasonharperjasonharper
460411
460411
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
2
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Lowest I managed so far is 9 digits:
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1)! + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1;
11*(1 + 1 + 1) - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)
Some other ways I came up with:
(1 + 1)^(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 - 1 - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)!/(1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)^(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
11*(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
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Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?
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– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
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@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
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– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Lowest I managed so far is 9 digits:
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1)! + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1;
11*(1 + 1 + 1) - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)
Some other ways I came up with:
(1 + 1)^(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 - 1 - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)!/(1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)^(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
11*(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
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$begingroup$
Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Lowest I managed so far is 9 digits:
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1)! + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1;
11*(1 + 1 + 1) - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)
Some other ways I came up with:
(1 + 1)^(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 - 1 - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)!/(1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)^(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
11*(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
$endgroup$
Lowest I managed so far is 9 digits:
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1)! + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1;
11*(1 + 1 + 1) - (1 + 1 + 1 + 1)
Some other ways I came up with:
(1 + 1)^(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 - 1 - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)!/(1 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 1 (10 digits)
(1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1)^(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
11*(1 + 1) + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 (11 digits)
edited Feb 28 at 7:40
Rai
995112
995112
answered Feb 28 at 2:30
simonzacksimonzack
294110
294110
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Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
$begingroup$
Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
Looking at your first 10 and 11 digit solutions, can't you simplify to
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1)+1+1
for 8 digits?$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
Feb 28 at 10:07
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal: Less simplified and more a different solution...
$endgroup$
– Chris
Feb 28 at 14:44
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For the sake of completeness, here's an 8 digit solution:
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1) + 1 + 1
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
For the sake of completeness, here's an 8 digit solution:
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1) + 1 + 1
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
For the sake of completeness, here's an 8 digit solution:
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1) + 1 + 1
$endgroup$
For the sake of completeness, here's an 8 digit solution:
(1+1+1)^(1+1+1) + 1 + 1
answered Feb 28 at 3:43
kwypstonkwypston
1863
1863
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This was posted before the question was edited to demand an integer, and requires that the rules accept rounding, but it does produce the digits 29. Six is achievable in this way:
$sqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11 approx 29.1033$
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2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
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You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
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– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
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Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
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Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
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– a sandwhich
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This was posted before the question was edited to demand an integer, and requires that the rules accept rounding, but it does produce the digits 29. Six is achievable in this way:
$sqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11 approx 29.1033$
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This was posted before the question was edited to demand an integer, and requires that the rules accept rounding, but it does produce the digits 29. Six is achievable in this way:
$sqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11 approx 29.1033$
$endgroup$
This was posted before the question was edited to demand an integer, and requires that the rules accept rounding, but it does produce the digits 29. Six is achievable in this way:
$sqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11 approx 29.1033$
edited 2 days ago
answered Feb 28 at 4:51
a sandwhicha sandwhich
46917
46917
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
Interesting approach to the question but an exact answer is required.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:25
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
You could fix it with the floor: $lfloorsqrt{( ( 1 + 1 + 1 )! + 1 )} * 11rfloor = 29$
$endgroup$
– Dr Xorile
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Floor can't be used. As well, I just assumed that people would take 29 as exactly 29 not around 29.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
$begingroup$
Well, as the problem originally stated "make 29" without an explicit restriction to an exact integer result, asking on a puzzling site where people enjoy posting creative/stretch answers will bring one to accept such responses. Before the restriction was imposed, the multiple definitions of "make" might not rule out extra digits appearing.
$endgroup$
– a sandwhich
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
11+11+11-1-1-1-1=29 This is my best guess.
New contributor
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7
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Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
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– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
11+11+11-1-1-1-1=29 This is my best guess.
New contributor
$endgroup$
7
$begingroup$
Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
add a comment |
$begingroup$
11+11+11-1-1-1-1=29 This is my best guess.
New contributor
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11+11+11-1-1-1-1=29 This is my best guess.
New contributor
edited Feb 28 at 7:33
rhsquared
8,18031849
8,18031849
New contributor
answered Feb 28 at 7:10
Jodi AnsleyJodi Ansley
21
21
New contributor
New contributor
7
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Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
add a comment |
7
$begingroup$
Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
7
7
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Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
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Even 11 * (1+1+1) is better for the beginning.
$endgroup$
– Allan Cao
Feb 28 at 7:22
add a comment |
protected by Rubio♦ Feb 28 at 7:46
Thank you for your interest in this question.
Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).
Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?
10
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(1+1+1) / .1 - 1
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– shoover
Feb 28 at 6:28
2
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Do you know if there is a solution with less than 7 digits, or are we just hoping there is one?
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– luchonacho
Feb 28 at 11:01
2
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@AllanCao Are you, by any chance, a smurf account of one of the regulars? Never have I ever seen such a well-defined formation-of-numbers puzzle with the "new contributor" flag on it. Great job, and welcome to PSE!
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– Bass
Feb 28 at 15:31
1
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Thank you! I'm not an alt account or anything. As well, I think 6 might be possible but I haven't found a solution. I've only gone down to 7 which I found to be a fun puzzle so I decided to share it.
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– Allan Cao
2 days ago
2
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I've got a 5-er too... By thinking out of the box quite a bit... Would be fun to post - but not enough rep...
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– ppeterka
yesterday